"but the broader Australian community ought to be concerned that this would-be Prime Minister is prepared to undermine social cohesion for political gain".

Should be, but the broader Australian community has shown by electing Howard four times, that issues such as social cohesion are not a priority, and are rarely if ever discussed.

As long as interest rates are low, and they can have their four wheel drive and their flat screen TV, why worry about such esoteric issues as social cohesion.

Australia has much to fear in it's small numbers fundamentalist Christians and their hatred of our way of life.

Oh Greg.
Long have I sided with you on the issue of censorship.
Long have we figuratively stood shoulder to shoulder in the battle to maximise the information available to the public in the knowledge that they, the public, are not stupid and can deal with difficult concepts just fine.
Long has your stance on this point excused, in my mind, some of your more erratic writings.

Why, oh why, would you go and write something like:

"There is no inherent right, nor should there be, for a person's religious or political beliefs to be quarantined from criticism, condemnation or even vilification, Clarke, a member of the secretive Catholic Church-aligned Opus Dei movement, told the NSW Parliament in last September.
If Clarke were a Muslim, one imagines Costello would have used this absurd comment as a prize exhibit in his speech"

Any Australian who practises any religion must not be discriminated against. An Australian is free to practise, or not practice, any religion they want. Those are the laws of this land, and good laws they are.

But those laws don't put your religious beliefs outside the realm of criticism, condemnation, even vilification. I am, and should always be, free to vilify (definition - spread negative information about) fundamentalist Christians and their plethora of dangerous sects, fundamentalist Muslims, Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Buddhists and Atheists, so long as my vilification is factual (doesn't amount to slander or libel). I am free, as Coach does here so regularly, to quote "difficult" passages from the Bible (old or new testament), the Koran or whatever texts the Scientologists have.

I cannot discriminate in employment, I cannot refuse service in my shop nor can I refuse to sell my house to someone on the basis of religion. This is, as I said, all good law and fair enough.

But, within the confines of the truth, I can criticise, condemn or vilify to my heart's content.

To deny me such is to attack a freedom that I, and many other Australians, value very highly indeed.

Peter Costello is an Essendon fan - a bit like the countless assistant coaches who have sat at the feet of Kevin sheedy for a quarter of a century waitng for a tilt at the top job a good many drifted off into the willderness once they realised Sheeds was going no where - Just like JW Howard.

No amount of re packaging will help him - he was clearly badly advised on his last speech to the Sydney Institute - it was careless and shameless popularism; that boat in many repsects has left. While many agree with the nonsense he spoke he will garner few new fans. He has just managed to unfairly single out and piss off for no real gain one segment of the community.

He was tactless and if John Winston has anything it is tact and smarts. If the Libs want political nouse and cunning, to replace Howard with Costello is a bit like replacing a clever rat with a truffle pig.

John Winston has no desire to leave and no real need to leave. He is as teflon coated as any world leader. No one has really laid a glove on him in recent years so his party see him, as Alexander Downer has describes, as some sort of benevolent patriarch keeping a watchful eye on his ministers ( read children).

I am loathe to agreee with Andrew "whose sorry now?" Bolt who has suggested Alex might be in the running for the top job; I have rankled some of my ALP cronies for some time with that prediction - He was at the fore front of the PR campaign in the Afghan and Iraq war while the Minsiter for Defence mumbled in the back ground unconvincing and totally over shadowed by Downer and the PM.

Downer will discard the fishnet stocking of his past and a bit like our Steve Bradbury in the Winter Olympics get the gold by default - the true Austrlian way.

Vale' Peter Costello

To Mr Greg Barns.

“Christian fundamentalists” have not declared war on the West. There is no Christian equivalent to Al Qaida or Jemaah Islamiah who are setting off bombs all over the place and flying airliners into skyscrapers. “Christian” suicide bombers do not exist because suicide is against their religion, but Muslim suicide bombers do exist and they are honoured by their religion. “Christian” fundamentalists are not noted for storming schools, holding children hostage and raping the little girls to pass the time before shooting them. Christian fundamentalists do not plant bombs on buses and trains. In short, the overwhelming majority of people do not see Christian fundamentalists as anywhere near as big a threat as their Muslim equivalents.

So cut out the feigned outrage, Mr Barns. Your silly premise is obviously flawed, and your real motivations are as transparent as a sheet of glass.

Your next big mistake is to condemn Peter Costello for “populism.” If a politician is smart enough to respond to the wishes of the Australian electorate, then that is why the Liberals keep winning elections and why Labor keeps losing them.

You then accuse the Liberlas of undermining social cohesion. You are finally correct about something. By being a party to the importation of welfare dependent, crime prone and unassimilatable people, the Liberals are indeed undermining social cohesion. But they are not as bad at this folly as Labor, the Democrats or the Greens.

Someone else who can see through the shameful Liberal pandering to the right. So-called Christians of the right are responsible for more carnage and terrorism than any other mob - not to mention the undermining of social cohesion. The time and money alone spent on militarism is shameful counter to the Christian faiths supposed belief in "the sacredness and infinitive worth of every human soul". (Just saw that the US are renewing their nuclear arsenal. Great way to undermine international social cohesion. Of course Liberals will dutifully tag along a few paces behind like a drunk teenager trying earnestly to fit in. The moral majority will go along like teenagers bending to peer pressure. Hypocrites.
Paul said:
Be not overcome of evil
But overcome evil with good.

Mikhail Naimy said:
"Aye fight! But not your neighbour. Fight rather all the things that cause you and your neighbour to fight."

Dropkicks sang:"Fight, fight you'll never win". (Spare time)

What mythical social cohesion are you speaking of? Costello is merely following in his boss's (the quintessential opportunist) footsteps. Look around and you see racial, class, and religious divides everywhere. Slagging off at social minorities is a national sport. Gold Gold Gold!

I suppose you could start your own political movement, Call it “The Barff Party”: Christian Fundis, What are they? Not some of the obnoxious Marxisized morons pretending to be Christians, they are just as fundamentally intellectually depraved as some of the posters here, as well as the writer, Fairdinkum.
Did You Idiots forget about Iran: When Marxist: for that matter (Illuminati)Whitch doctors - pathological traits intermingle with pathological Islamic Attila’s trait, you Illuminati whacko will be the first to be SHOT.
Now I mentioned it, I see your point now : Perhaps We should speed up the process.?

Don't ya love Barnsy,the little handwringing do gooding socialist who won't take responsibility for his actions.

You're not smart enough to see through the politics Greg.Notice how Mr Costus Fellow takes one tack of putting the Muslims in their place and Abbott takes the opposite tack of saying"We should let people assimilate through multi-culturalism at their own pace"

It is called playing the electorate and all pollies do it.Costello shores up the conservative Anglo vote and Abbott shores up the ethnic vote.

What a perfect dynamic duo.Abbott and Costello.

Now Greg,have you found a way of getting those electrodes out of your undies?Those shocker jockers from your last article could come back to haunt you and addle your brain.

Redneck's explanation of the differences between Muslim extremism and fundamenatlist Christians is very accurate. I'm stunned that this is not apparent to the author of this article.

It's important to understand that Cultural Diversity does not equal a freedom to kill and destroy for Allah.

Costllo's call for Muslim extremists to moderate their views and behaviour or leave the country is well judged,timely and an accurate reflection of what is in the best interests of all Australians.

The deeply cynical Left still fear the imaginary Right wing takeover of the world, underlying motives and right wing religious conspiracies.

At least the conservative christian won't decapitate unbelievers on film.

The author of this article is naieve and suspicious but misdirected and oddly defends those who would steal his freedom were they given a chance.

the islamist leftist racial call is debunked their comparison between islam and christians is well debunked...

whats next ?

Come on now Greg Barns,addresses, dates, proof, of the abortion clinics you claim have been "violently attacked by Christians".You couldn't provide them because you know this to be untrue.You would not dare look this old friend in the eye and try to claim what you trying to tell the readers of Online Opinion. The jig is up Greg and you will never get away with such untruths again while this old friend reads Online Opinion. Peter Costello is a populist for sure....just like you yourself have become!
Denny.

The fact that former supporters like Greg Barns are now amongst its strongest critics just goes to show how extreme this government has become.

I agree, Peter Costello's attempt at dog whistling is a desperate move to shore up support in his play for the top job. He's seen playing the wedge work brilliantly for the incumbent so when all else fails why not take a leaf from the same book. Sneekeepete's view that it might be Downer who is the anointed one after all is no doubt a further catalyst. There aren't as many opportunities for a treasurer to play the race card as for someone in Downer's position, so why not create a few of your own. And what better venue than The Sydney Institute!

As a side issue, I am constantly amazed at the difference between the two Costello brothers. There must be some heated (or icy) dinner conversations when they get together. Or perhaps in the interests of family harmony politics is kept off the menu.

Referring to Redneck's statement that Christian fundamentalists don't resort to suicide bombing. Why would they? They have the world's most powerful military force and its biggest and deadliest arsenal of weaponry executing their every wish - spreading democracy and Christian influence far and wide - not to mention wealth-creating opportunities. With the US army on your side, who needs God? There's certainly no need to get your own hands dirty.

The average Muslim fundamentalist who just happens to resent his people's land and resources, not to mention their minds, being taken over by Western imperialist and capitalist forces has no such luxury. His only weapon is the fact he doesn't value his earthly life the way we do in the west.

All I can think of is that Costello must be a bit of a slow learner, it has taken him ten years to work out the same thing that Aussies have been saying for years.
For the past decade our country has been divided by the question and problems of immigration, ghettoes have been established, ethnic gangs , not police, control the city streets and finally our leaders twig that there is something amiss .
Well!Hurrah! the penny has dropped at last......now let us have some solutions. Hopefully it will not take another ten years,it will be too late by then.

All,
I thought I would never see the day when you described yourself as "intellectually depraved" good man, they say a problem lessens after you first admit to it.

Costello's just another politician, he is carrying on a long tradition of "divide and conquer" nothing new in that. Although the undermining of social cohesion may cost him the chance at the Prime Ministership. Sadly if it does we would get Beazley, what a bloody choice!

Both parties should be in pursuit of generational change, it's time for some new blood, new policies, new creative thinking, we have much confronting us, water shortages, alternate sources of power, social cohesion, reuniting the nation, reintroduction of a fair days work for a fair days pay {both sides of this issue} international relations, industrial relations, national population distribution plan, a limit to our population, goodness me, I don't see either John Walker Howard, or Kim Beazley handling any of these or other pressing issues.

In the previous decade infastructure has lagged behind population growth, roads, health, water storage and conservation, a raft of issues need tackling urgently, nobody seems to be addressing these issues, why? Do we need to grease someone's hand everytime a government contract is let? Developers are making money hand over fist, no public facilities, who pays, US. It's time to stop this nonsense, and for governments of both colours to govern, represent the people who elect you.

Whether it's the blue team or the red team, the public is quickly becoming sick to the back teeth with you, address these issues or a third party will eventually come into being.

Media in Australia are pushing points of view to reflect media barons view point.Prime Minister Howard is using right wing Talk Back hosts throughout Australia. Family First has a Senator elected only because Victorian A.L.P. was trying to protect the possible loss of a Senator from their state. Family First is a right wing Liberal supporting party. Just look at South Australia when Family values and Channel 7 current affairs show Today Tonight attacked morals on liberal M.H.R. Trish Draper. Media can make candidates and members of parliament look like turkeys.

Bronwyn, you've got it right. The evangalistic Christian religion is the most deadly for this country, considering its weaponry and constant removal of peoples freedoms throughout the world. Consider the christian religious right and the massive economic control they have through multinational corporate monopolies. Take the religiously controlled USA Haliburton, it now has control of many aspects of our defence supplies and government contracts. We have a government thats dictated to by the US evangelistic white house, so you can see why Costello is pushing their barrow. As to him and his brother, both the same, just different disguises and hats.

I hope the time comes when this country finally decides it has had enough of the demonic and despotic monotheistic warmongers and throws them all out. But I reckon we are in for a very rough ride. Lets hope everyone wakes up before we have lost all our freedoms and a religious state is forced upon us, in the name of good government and security against the islamic threat. Not a bad ploy they are using to gain full dictatorial control

Christian fundementalists for example the Assembly of God, the Baptists are a sight to behold at a lecture on a Sunday morning. I say lecture as theit parishoners seem to be hypnotised, and they are lectured from the pulpit by fundamentalists on how they should live, where to send their children to school, and many other aspects of their lives as if they were robots taking instruction.

Please don't take my word for it, attend a service on a Sunday morning and see for yourself, it will be an eye opening experience for any who either do not believe in God, or those of us who do. I came away shaking my head, Peter Costello is a member of Hillsong, George Dubbya is also a member, please attend, and let us know what you discover, I promise you, it will not be what you expect.

Bronwyn and Alchemist

I have to point out (for the umpteenth time) that the reason there are not Christian 'suicide bombers' is exactly as (The non Christian) Redneck said: it is against our FAITH and against the teaching of Christ.

A person is a 'Christ'ian when Christ is in their hearts and lives.
Not because they have a green card for the USA.

This is the problem with so many observers, they fail to distinguish between the different foundations of Christ and Mohammed.

If u fail to do this, your conclusions will be spurious, just as Alchemists and Bronwyns are.

When 'Christians' begin a guerilla movement to destroy the state because it fails to uphold 'Mosaic Law' you can clearly say "They are disobeying the teaching and example Christ and their faith is highly questionable"

Such is not the case with Mohammed and Islam, in this case, the worst you can say is... wait.. there is nothing to say.

"Fight them wherever you find them" ('those attacking the Muslims')

....and of course, 'attacking muslims' can be anywhere, anytime and is open to an interpretation which could conceivably include a Non Muslim Bank manager foreclosing on their home. (yes, I'm serious) The sura and verse I quoted above is specifically about those who have 'forced the Muslims out of their dwellings'. Sura 2:191
While this interpretation might seem a bit of a stretch, it is not too much to say that anyone harrassing, making life hard,persecuting Muslims is not 'attacking' Muslims.- does it matter if you attack with a sword, an m16 or a foreclosure notice ? The result is the same.

God help the Bank manager who forecloses on a radical/fundamentalist Muslim with a large extended family !

The point of course, is that once you 'set in concrete' the principles of war as in the Quran, you are able to apply them as Muslims.

All we need is a Benbrika or a 'Dr Hook' from the UK and next thing u know, we have people arrested on suspicion of planning to assassinate our PM and his family !

Hi y'all,
Paul Hill. Look him up. The notion that suicide is against the christian faith is, maybe, debatable: could Jesus have avoided or come down from the cross? That murder is against the christian faith is, maybe, less debatable. Paul Hill is not the only one: Eric Rudolph, Michael Griffin. But one counter-example is all it takes to knock out the argument on logic. On balance of probabilities as a ground we need to go to total populations, numbers of offenders, and history: not so easy and beyond my time availability at the moment. And, texts out of context remain pretexts, regardless of source or target. Thankfully, as far as I know, Australia is not following America in this, yet.

Social cohesion is a tricky business. Vilifying anyone (on one OED definition: To lower or lessen in worth or value; to reduce to a lower standing or level; to make of little (or less) account or estimation.) is to devalue someone on some basis, i.e. to make them worth less than the vilifier. I find it difficult to see this as a viable right in a society that views people as equal before the law and as citizens (to the extent that they are citizens). It allows me to say X is worth less than me or my group, and therefore,their voice should not be heard. Insult, mock, lampoon, satirise, argue with, disagree with, yes; vilify, probably not.

odsoc

odsoc

To Ms. Bronwyn.

The culture of the North European Protestant people has been the most successful on this planet while Islam has been an unmitigated disaster. So spreading “Christian influence”, “democracy” and “wealth creating opportunities” through military means does not seem such a bad idea to me. But if you believe that the US government has been taken over by Christian fundamentalists who want to spread Christianity by the sword, then I think that you should have a Bex, a cup of tea, and a good lie down. The Christian/atheist world is having fun while the Islamic world walking backwards into the future, which is exactly what the Christians want. The Christians want the Muslims to keep stuffing everything up.

But getting back to Greg Barn’s original premise, there is no valid comparison between Christian fundamentalist terrorism and Muslim fundamentalist terrorism. I know about the attacks on abortion clinics and the staff of those clinics, but these attacks are more the work of individual psychos than organised groups. If such groups do exist, they are not even national, much less international.

I can see that you are another trendy who is making excuses for Islamic terrorism. Good. Good. Please keep it up. Don’t forget to link your opinions with “the three R’s” (Reconciliation, Republic and Refugees). It helps us Rednecks heaps.

I am a right wing gun nut who resents my people’s land being invaded by Muslims. I resent my people’s resources being looted by Muslims. I resent my culture being polluted by giant multimedia organisations that create music, movies, TV shows and computer games which glamourise violence, profanity, and criminal behaviour, and then specifically engineer their marketting to appeal to our children. Using the same logic you use to justify Muslim terrorism, if I engage in terrorism to fight against these social evils, am I a freedom fighter too?

The only thing that you got right was that Muslims do not value their earthly life. You betcha they don’t. Our system has given us a life worth living. Theirs is just a religion of death.

Dear Odsoc

Paul Hill

Presbyterian minister who was executed for murdering an abortion clinic doctor.

Can you help me out here and provide some scriptural foundation for 'murder' ?

I can show you something "against" it:

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment.

I think ALL of us are under judgement on that one.. including you ?

Your comment on Jesus death surprised me a bit, I tend to assume people actually understand His death in context but clearly this is not the case.

From Isaiah 53:

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Odsoc, do you realize 'you' (and I) are part of that "all" ?

From Jesus

45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

You know, the very first thing Jesus taught His disciples after they realized he is 'The Christ' (Mark 8.27-29) was this:

31He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must
suffer many things and
be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and
after three days rise again.

32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

Why did Peter rebuke Him ? I guess he was a lot like us. We dont LIKE a sacrificial, giving,serving "Messiah" we want a powerful, hero type who will rid us of either John Howard or the Tax office or Al Queda etc..I urge you (and all) to consider your position regarding the real Christ.

Bronwyn said:

"The average Muslim fundamentalist who just happens to resent his people's land and resources, not to mention their minds, being taken over by Western imperialist and capitalist forces has no such luxury. His only weapon is the fact he doesn't value his earthly life the way we do in the west."

Maybe its you who is standing next ot him on the bus when he explodes his backpack. He doesn't value your life either. Perhaps that would be justice.

I swear its fools like you will get us all killed.

"There is no inherent right, nor should there be, for a person's religious or political beliefs to be quarantined from criticism, condemnation or even vilification" Greg writes against this veiw.

it would seem to me the author's argument is ridiculous, as the author is actually vilifieing the MP the above quote came from. He is vilifying (criticising) his political beliefs in an article saying that one cannot vilify peoples beliefs? What is the world coming to?

Has any Christian terrorist attack killed over three thousand in one go. Have they even killed three thousand in total over the past one hundred years? Islam likes to keep at this level for each and every year. And that american and western army you guys say is run by the christian west, oh that's right, they are the ones helping out the black muslims who the arab muslims are slaughtering in the Sudan. Oh, thats right, they were also the ones who ended up stopping the slaughter of bosnian muslims after the wider UN let them be slaughtered in front of their eyes

you people would be happy if we had waited in australia to mount a defense against the japanese army no doubt, instead of preemptively moving up into indonesia and fighting (with one or two exceptions) the whole war outside of australia. In fact you lefties would probably prefer if we had just submitted. After all you guys love books like catch 22 which portray all wars as completely bad.

I certainly would have loved to live with Hitler and the Japanese ruling the whole world, as I know you guys would prefer. Just as you will argue that we should just let the muslims take over the world, rather than risk your lives fighting against that tyranny.

I can only count my lucky stars that poeple were not more like you back in the formative years of this country (the world wars). I can hear the whinging, 'oh so many died'. and my reply 'shut your ignorant mouths, we are lucky they gave there lives so we could live, something you lefties would never do.' Just take a look at the australian army, no lefties in there, after all the australian army can't take on stupid people can they now.

I can only count my lucky stars that the islamic countries are so poor, despite their great wealth, and so stupid (so they can continue believing in islam) that they will likely only constitute a economic (oil) threat.

No Atman, I am no fool and I resent being labelled one.

It's attitudes like yours, not mine, that have helped make this world less safe. Contrary to your myopic view of the world, the West does not have all the right on its side. Muslims have a rich and proud heritage just as we do and they are within their rights to want to preserve it. Western greed has a lot to answer for and many thousands have died for it. Muslims would have little argument with the West if we hadn't been seeking to gain control of their oil for the last half century.

I am no apologist for terrorism. I condemn it as strongly as you do. I just know that waging a war on it and promoting fear and hatred as you are intent on doing will never make the world safer. For every potential terrorist we kill another ten will step up to take their place. The majority of Muslims are decent peace-loving people. We have to work with them and not against them.

Greg Barnes has either been deliberately deceptive or has the comprehension skills of a mentally challenged goanna.

Here's what Costello said:

'On Australia Day this year, as I always do, I attended a Citizenship Ceremony at the Stonnington Town Hall in my electorate of Higgins. People from 36 different countries were taking out Australian citizenship this year. Various dignitaries – Local Mayors, State and Federal MPs give speeches at these ceremonies and because it is Australia Day, they usually try to make some observation on what it means to be an Australian.

One of the speakers this year extolled the virtues of multiculturalism telling those attending that becoming an Australian did not mean giving up culture or language or religion or opinions and it certainly did not mean giving up the love of their country of birth. The longer he went on about how important it was not to give up anything to become an Australian the more it seemed to me that, in his view, becoming an Australian didn't seem to mean very much at all – other than getting a new passport. This State MP finished up his speech by telling the new citizens that they had done Australia a great honour by choosing to come to the country and choosing to become its citizen.

By this stage I was feeling quite guilty that we had detained these good people so long. Here they were doing us a favour and we were standing on ceremony.

But I realized that this confused mushy misguided multiculturalism completely underestimated the audience.'

Greg Barnes misquoted Costello and that misquote was also out of context.
Greg Barnes also twisted Costello's statement to suit his own confused ends.

Similarly Costello's statement on Islamic practices.

Costello said:

'The Australian Citizenship Oath or Affirmation tries to capture the essence of what it means to be Australian, it reads as follows:

“From this time forward [under God] I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect and whose laws I will uphold and obey.”

To be an Australian citizen one pledges loyalty first:- loyalty to Australia. One pledges to share certain beliefs:- democratic beliefs; to respect the rights and liberty of others; and to respect the rule of law.'

and

'And the citizenship pledge should be a big flashing warning sign to those who want to live under sharia law. A person who does not acknowledge the supremacy of civil law laid down by democratic processes cannot truthfully take the pledge of allegiance. As such they do not meet the pre-condition for citizenship.'

He said other similar things using the initial quote as his reference point.
He didn't attack Muslim practices. He attacked those who wished to implement sharia law in Australia.'

Greig Barnes twisted Costello's statements to suit his own bankrupt ends.

Shameful that OLO should publish such dishonest intrepretations.

I am left wondering whether anyone bothered to read Costello's speech.

For those who want an independant view with an intelligent approach the speech in question can be found at the following website:

http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/speeches/2006/004.asp

It is the actual speech.

This article is an absolute disgrace.

Bronwyn obviously has absolutely no knowledge of economics or the oil market in the world. Has she ever considered that without the West, and its economic development, the oil would still be sitting in the ground in the Middle East, and therefore worth absolutely NOTHING to the Muslims.
Does she really think they get no payment at all for their oil?
As for working with Muslims and not against them, maybe she would like to go and live in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran or some other Muslim paradise and then see what working with them is all about.
The West had a lot of problems with Muslims long before there was any demand for oil. Just read a little history, Bronwyn.
I really get sick of these do-gooder, hand-wringing trendy lefties with absolutely no knowledge, advocating that we abandon our society to the will of religious nutcases.
Those same trendy lefties would be the first to feel the real effects of Muslim fascism.
Atman is right, you are a fool, Bronwyn.

With all this talk about "national values" recently there is going to come a day when our leaders are going to have to state their position and tell the nation what our so-called values are...I expect they will be something like:- White, Christian, Heterosexual, Working Class, Sports Obsessed and how can we forget...that tired old chestnut - "mateship". Of course we will have it all nicely packaged by Channel Nine (and the rest) and the public will accept it without question. Australia used to embrace difference, now we only fear it. The Cronulla Riots made me deeply ashamed of what we have become. While interest rates are low, the Howard Administration will never be held to account for what they have done to Australia. This period of economic sunshine cannot last forever, and when it ends, John Howard's Australia will be fully realised...heaven help us then!

Excellent article, Greg, it certainly does show that with Howard’s continuing success despite his bosom friend George W’s increasing problems, Costello is looking for avenues, whether politically left or right.

Talking from a point of view of advanced mature age learners, some with earlier poor education, but having been given special praise for insightly questioning, we might say John Howard has done surprisingly well. Yet we also might say that Howard’s success has only been mostly tactical, virtually playing his luck, as proven by the way he was able to scoop up all of Pauline Hanson’s former votes. Furthermore, though such does prove his former capacity as a lawyer, it is not to say that he has been a good historian, proven by his over-eagerness to follow America, a strong nation with capacity to be a proven winner, but despite the ending of the Cold War, with really not much of a record since the incredibly wonderfull success of the Marshall Plan. .

But like the people who vote for him, Howard is sure he is backing a winner - his looks and manner typically 19th century statesman style, stiff upper lip and all, which could have made even Bob Menzies a little jealous of him.

No doubt about it, for Costello, John Howard will be a hard act to follow. And to be sure the worse thing Costello can do is to try to do better than Howard in Howard’s beliefs, which Costello has done not only by virtually ordering all Islamics to toe the Aussie line or else, but also by his unfortunate suggestion last year, that considering the problems of terrorism, the Federal Government should be allowed to review our study curriculums. Costello did not mention it, but we can be sure he meant the Humanities areas where learning is far more cosmopolitan

BOAZ_David said that there are no Christian suicide bombers.

Who bombed the Alfred Murrah government building in Oklahoma City on 19th April 1995. Wasn't it Timothy McVeigh, a white supremist?

And why isn't the very American activity of bombing abortion clinics and killing their staff considered an Act of Terrorism?

Remember that Osama Bin Laden was trained by the CIA, he is possibly their star pupil. The CIA also nurtured Saddam Hussein.

Because Tim is so for social justice, I am still watching Peter before I pass judgement.

the islamofacists and terrorist appologists swarmed to this article.

to the idiot who posted above, have a look at the posted link - 4386 documented Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11. Scroll down the list.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

unless Muslims, and their appologists who protect their asocial behaviour, take some responsibility for the social terror the rest of us are subjected to, ie, Australian girls 'strappless and backless', hassled, threatened, raped etc. There is a necessity for a voice such as Costello's -

my father and I are working class and have voted labor all our lives, and we are vehemently opposed to IR laws, BUT we will be voting Liberal across the tiers based on one issue - we have seen too much suffering at the hands of lebanese, and are sick of being called racist becuase som epeople havent experienced it, let your daughter be raped and called an 'Aussie slut' and then tell me if you are sztill tolerant of an ideology that preaches rape for strappless backless, and those who protect that people who follow it becausxe they cant see past differences in skin colour - lets not forget, back isalnders were at the rally in cronulla, and were not turned on by the white anglos, but were embraced, because they are social!!

YES!! BOAZ_David said that there are no Christian "SUICIDE BOMBERS".

"SUICIDE BOMBERS"
"SUICIDE BOMBERS"
"SUICIDE BOMBERS"

Timothy McVeigh, WAS NOT A SUICIDE BOMBER!! Timothy McVeigh, WAS NOT A SUICIDE BOMBER!! Timothy McVeigh, WAS NOT A SUICIDE BOMBER!!

Bin Laden may have had some training with the US, but so have US marines, it doesn't make a difference who trained the US marines if they start to murder US civilians!! the same for Bin Laden - idiot!!

I am an Australian living in Melbourne and the last case of fanatic death was the killing of the security guard outside a fertility clinic so I feel more threatened by christian religious fanatics than I do by loutish "middle eastern" youth who swarm Sydney.

Have you had your medication checked lately?

BILLIE
please think more about what you post mate.. no offence but perhaps you have not realized you linked

White Supremacists(generally)= "Christians"
Tim McVeigh(specifically)= "Christian"
CIA (surprisingly)= "Christians"

I think the difficulty here Billie is you don't really understand what a Christian is, not meaning to sound sarcastic there either, I'm quite serious.

Billie, Jesus came preaching the "Gospel" Which was 2 basic points

1/ Repent (from sin and evil)
2/ Believe (in Christ as Messiah, Lord and Savior)

Result "forgiveness of sin"

As Paul puts it in Ephesians:

"12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ."

It appears you are confusing 'People in Western countries' with 'real' Christians.

In order to determine the chemical composition of a compound, you subject it to analysis. Same goes for 'Christians'.

Are their lives characterized by Christ ? by Love, Joy, Patience, Kindness, self control, gentelness,meekness, boldness etc ?

But before you jump on me or Coach or others here and point out our own departures from a life such as this, please reflect on your own,
and when you have put it in order under God, and name Jesus as your Lord, then feel free to rebuke in a spirit of love, myself, Coach,Numbat, Fida and others if u feel we are wayward in this matter.

I promise you, I do struggle with 'how' to say things at times. Harping on about the evils of Islam is very 'Christian' in the same way Jesus and Paul warned about false prophets...


Paul said "You FOOLISH Galatians....Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort"

To warn, shed light on, expose ...is not 'un'Christian

Are you far off, or near ?

Thanks Redneck for your balanced posts on the facts that compare the two religions. Christian fundamentalists have existed in places of influence in political Australia since it became a Federation.

Think: "It is such a pity they have given us such a barstardised culture and way of life." Since it is so opressive I suggest you migrate to a less opressive Government.

For those who pretend the Christian fundamentalists pose the greatest threat to Australia - Please post the threats and destructive social and defiant acts they have committed against our laws and people.

Because if they opose Peter Costello's view of respect for our laws they also would fall under Peter Costello's rebuff. Then we from within the Churches can take action to excommunicate and denounce them as apostates of the teachings of Jesus Christ. "Do good to those that persecute you."

The constant vilification of Christians is not based in fact just impressions from hostile minds. Please quote the teachings of Jesus Christ when denouncing his followers who adhere to his teachings that threaten you. I suggest you read and exegete his teachings correctly then identify those that follow the fundamentals of his teaching that threaten your mortal life.

Timothy McVeigh was not following in the teaching of Jesus - if so please quote the verse from the teachings of Jesus that would give him authority for such acts. Jesus own life was threatened by Herod when he as an infant lived in Nazareth. He identified some nasty traits in the character of the Herods but never commissioned his followers to put them to death. What did he say; "Love your enemy!"

If love is a threat to your life then God help us - as obviously you are the terrorists.

Bd, Philo, excuses excuses, its fine to invade and kill, supply despots with arms, define a christian one way when it suits, yet denounce others when it doesn't. By your definition there are no christians on the planet. Those trying to advance their cause by fear, yet espouse love, are always the least able to provide evidence of the veracity of their claims.

You conveniently excuse the current and past expression of your monotheistic faction in an attempt to convey to us a delusion. Quick to condemn, but run quickly from fact. Judging who is entitled to be christian, shows how suspect your own veracity is. You conveniently dismiss the millions throughout the world that've had their lives destroyed in the name of god via force and violent conversion. Nor the myriad of christian aggressions throughout the world. Aren't the Jesuits, Knights templar, the many popes private armies that looted and destroyed, Christians. Bush, Howard, Costello, not Christians. Just you two holier than thou, that make the grade.

By their words and deed shall you know them. Jeus, he wasn't a christian was he, no using violence to clear a temple, wasn't violent. Just an act of love, like the witch burnings, Irish bombings and desperate desire to control by whatever means. You don't consider constantly ramming scriptural quotes at people as violence. To the vast majority, it's psychological violence, an affront to our intelligence, having meaningless garbage put to us in conflict with reality. Just a bigoted and self righteous endevour to cover up your inability to confront the reality of your despotic beliefs approach and the continuing destruction monotheistic beliefs constantly thrust upon the world.

The lot of you should be repatriated to where your beliefs originated from, considering you hold it in such high esteem. That way you can use you normal approach to solve your problems without constantly destroying everything you touch. Terrorism comes in many forms, christians, continue to use them all.

It is well to remember that historically most of us contributors are connected to whom the Roman writer Tacitus termed those Germanic barbarians over the Alps. Moreover, descended from those barbarians were and are the Germans who allowed their rulers to exterminate six million Jews, as so sadly indeed, many Christian bishops stood by.

Nazism gives us a reminder how even you and I, as ordinary humans can be caught up in letting our leaders give sanction to such horrors, as might be built up from the way we talk and write about Muslims today.

Certainly many Muslims have genocidal thoughts about us Westerners, which proves as humans none of us basically is much better than the other. So it seems we might take a lesson from Socrates, who when he said out with the Gods and in with the Good, meant that most normal humans using the right intellect have the capacity to find true goodness.

That is why both Christians and Muslims, should use reason and intellect rather than misguided faith to find peace together

Froggie,
Quite some time ago in Australia's history we described people like you, who are masters of "the economy" "religion" "politics" and everything else as ENO's, for two reasons, ENO'S nothing, and ENO's gives you the s$#ts.

You obviously talk through your hat on these issues, please read more, I suggest TIME Magazine, for a beginner. Bronwyn presents a well balanced post, and your superiority complex reacts, leftie! Rather than label everything you disagree with as leftie, why not discover what leftie actually means?

Bronwyn, I love your work, please continue to post informed items, for the enlightened to agree with.

Regards, Shaun

Shonga
I really seem to have rattled your cage, don’t I?
Who do you think you are, replying on behalf of someone else? You must believe that you are superior to her, or that she can't answer for herself.
My post was directed to Bronwyn, not to you, so butt out!
I notice you have not responded to what I wrote, maybe because you have no answer to it.

Let’s have some facts to show where I’m “talking through my hat”.

Tell me what is “balanced” about statements like:

"The average Muslim fundamentalist who just happens to resent his people's land and resources, not to mention their minds, being taken over by Western imperialist and capitalist forces has no such luxury. His only weapon is the fact he doesn't value his earthly life the way we do in the west."

”Western greed has a lot to answer for and many thousands have died for it. Muslims would have little argument with the West if we hadn't been seeking to gain control of their oil for the last half century.”

What a load of rubbish! Heard of OPEC, have you?

You people seem to have a knee-jerk reaction: “if it’s Western, it must be evil”.
Why not try to get into the 21st century, instead of replaying old refrains from the early 20th, based on a failed left-wing philosophy and political system?

I know you always want to be seen to be championing the so-called “underdog”, but these particular underdogs, should they ever get out from under, will chew you up and spit you out.

Not a very good article and an even more disappointing series of posts. Any article on this site related to multiculturalism or Islam seems to bring out the rabid christians and anti-muslims. Several weeks of reading such 'debates' leaves me jaded and pessimistic that debate such as this can ever shift people from their bigoted standpoints or shed any meaning on the topic. When multiculturalism and Islam is the topic, the debate seems to descend into abuse. I suggest that those that extol tolerance should refrain from joining in such debates and leave the bigots to agree with each other and congratulate each other on their wisdom, replete with biblical quotes. I am reminded of a saying:'never engage in mud wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it'.

PK,
From you supposed high position I would have thought you might have posted some balance, facts and thought provoking comments.

The article is itself merely an opinion of disputable research and balance. It is formulated from a political bias and agenda. Says little of fact about Peter Costello but outlines the political bias of the writer.

Because the article is political bigitory it will engender the same type of comments. It will encourage the disidents of our way of life to side with him.

I don't quite get it, Philo. Are you defending bigots in general , or just their right to put bigoted posts on this site, or only do so when responding to an article they perceive as bigoted? I think, whatever, bigotry is boring. You are not a bigot yourself are you? If so, I doon't want to muddy myself wrestling you.

Denny - I am in a pedantic mood - Barnes may not have spelt out the attacks on abortion clinics by Chrisitians - an assertion that you refute - but these contributions are opinion pieces not PhD's -
however go read the National Abortion Federation Incidence of Violence and Disruprion Report Against Abortion Providers in the US and Canada; there you will find 16 yearsof data outlining Barnes' claim - It does happen - Murder (at least 5), Arson, Burglarly etc; the data I have includes years uup to 2004.

There would seem to be good and evil every where one turns

Alternatively google "Abortion Clinic Violence" and you will find a State by state (US) breakdown of these events dating back to 1977 - only 13 of the states have recorded no incidence of such attacks.

Dear Sneekeepete,
I guess you will think I am in a pedantic mood also when I draw your attention to the incidence of violence as associated with abortion clinics to which Online Opinion's Greg Barns referred in his last Opinion piece. That is the 1.5 million murders that occur inside American abortuaries every year. That is about 45 million dead babies in the last 30 odd years Sneekeepete. What was that number you quoted ? 5 dead abortionists in 16 years....I think the figures speak for themselves. Of course 5 abortionists should not have been murdered in 16 years ...there should not have been 5 murders in Melbourne in the last 5 days either. Sure, you are right, Online isn't designed for Phd contributions.That's why Barns can get away with such shallow shots. But as I said in my last posting, the "jig is up". Barns knows abortion is indefensible...that some issues are, as he once put it himself, "not negotiable" His line in the Brisbane Courier Mail 4.2.2005 that "99 percent of abortions occur at a point before the fetus has organised cortical brain activity, that is, before it can form the desire to live. In other words in exercising her right, a woman is not impacting negatively on another's rights" is pure nonsense. I am old enough Sneekeepete to recall Barns' own impending arrival into this world. There was all round joy and congratulations. No talk of whether or not the Barns baby had a desire to be born!! He's taking 'the mickey' out of us all in his Online Opinions. For all I care, he can do just that for as long as he likes...except when he sneers at those who defend the innocent and vulnerable babe in the womb, Sneekeepete. I also trained as a midwife and will always defend 'my patch'.... babies who cannot defend themselves. Come to think of it, that's what I thought lawyers like Greg Barns were supposed to do, defend the innocent! Nice talking you Sneekeepete. Denny

Barnes was less concerned about abortions or the murders of abortionists than he was about the narrow and divisive focus taken by Costello - he simply used that as an example of of how cynical politicians use the privilege of forums often preserved for them to contribute to their own self engrandisement rather than the public good - putting aside the evils or otherwise of abortion - abortion was not the point - he could have equally accused Costello of turning a blind eye to the evils perpertrated on children by people in religious orders for example - as my kids say, its no bigee; just a tool of argument

He certainly wasn't sneering at those who defend the unborn - he simply said there were those who resort to criminal behaviour in the name of their faith - in this instance acts Costello chooses to ignore.

And I have no idea what being a midwife has to do with anything - apart from it being a fine profession - I mean you will probably find that a whole bunch of Obstetrcians who also practice gyneacology dabble in abortions as well. I wish you many happy deliveries

Considering the fact that this world is so heavily overpopulated by humans, it seems to me pretty naive to be wanting to save every fetus that is created, because of the so called right to life syndrome.

Those that are so venomously against abortion always seem to be aligned with some religion, so you can't expect much more from that quarter. Barns, well you just have to see how he acts when sitting at Salamanca having his latte, to see where he's coming from and how he sees his position in life.

“That is about 45 million dead babies in the last 30 odd years”. Come on Denny, what about the continuing millions killed by monotheistic zeal and desperation for control . A well as the other ideologies that seem to get a kick out mass killing. Do you ever consider the billions of animals that are enslaved and murdered yearly so that you can indulge in your gluttony, but maybe they count as unimportant. Compared to breeding more mouths to consume more animals and continue to degrade the planet. Really intelligent reasoning

Froggie, its not western, thats the problem, its the ideology thats behind both east and west, it called religion. All 3 factions are the problem, as they will never concede that they may be wrong in how they approach life, the future and other life on earth.

Alchemist,
The subject is not overpopulation.

To restrict population growth, if that is your problem, we need proper forms of contaception that do not have health side effects. Abortion by any means is not a healthy or moral way to reduce the population. Beside currently three of every eight young women find they cannot fall pregnant even though they have tried many methods.

This seems to reflect a general position in our society today. Too much social and career stress and low sperm counts in males. Besides the 1.8 replacement of the current population is not meeting future maintenance.

Overpopulation, occurs when the ecology of the planet begins to breakdown under the strain of the populance. Unless you want wall to wall people that the environment can't sustain, but I don't suppose you consider other than in passing, the rights of other life forms that call this planet their home.

Either you have a short memory or a very bland youth. You can't stop people having sex and making mistakes. One of the main problems is religions desperate push to restrict sexual education in schools. In the last 2000 years you have tried really hard to control just about everything, in your desperation to control by suppression. None of it has worked. You could have a million different forms of birth control and you would still have many unwanted pregnancies, Thats people, they do it no matter what is said.

As to the growing infertility of people, you only have to look at diet and lifestyles to see the correlation. I worked in a Hospital that at the time, had one of the busiest in vitro units in the country, yet only 3-5% had success. When the others were directed to lifestyle coaching, rarely did they turn up, or if they did, they didn't take any notice. Those that actually did do something about their lifestyle and diet, normally had success within 12 months. Exercise, good decent food and less stress, works wonders on the human body and psyche.

As to the 1.8 replacement, why is that required, unless you are just trying to create cannon fodder to support religious aims. It does nothing for the environment or sustainability of the planet. If we took welfare of those that have a lot of children and don't contribute to society, we would have a much better situation and would stop what many can see, as a desire to populate and gather strength for their religious aims. Bigotry is a part of religious dogma. I'd stop all immigration and restrict economically unsupported child birth. No money, no babies that would slow down the religious a bit and help the ecology.

Dear Sneekeepete,Philo and Alchemist,

There is some truth in what you say, Sneekeepete. I concede Greg Barns was using some isolated examples of violence outside abortion clinics in relation to what he claims was a narrow and divisive focus taken by Peter Costello in his recent speech, rather than abortion per se. But I still say: 'Is not the greater example the violence "inside the clinics"? That is much more massive. Remember, there are those who call themselves Christians who have and do abortions.You are right about the incidence of obstetricians 'dabbling' in abortions.This is a distortion of the "pagan" (take note Alchemist!) philosopher Hippocrates' beautiful Oath: "First do no harm". These obstetricians are the dregs of the profession. When I read Alchemist's concern about overpopulation I was reminded of all those who were who were terrified by that great ZPG propagandist Paul Erlich's predictions that we would all be eating seaweed by the year 2000? And what is the emerging health problem instead? Obesity! And we have problems associated with population implosion, not explosion! Philo, perfect contraception just sounds like a good motherhood statement to me. The Family Planners made promises like Paul Erlich 33 years ago viz that sex education and contraception would eradicate the need for abortion. Instead we have more and more abortions...and incidentally more child abuse. The reason? Easy availability of abortion. It's a very competetive industry Philo!. Anyhow, the point of all of this is to head Greg Barns off at the pass (as he sits sipping his latte's at the Salamanca! Loved that one Sneekeepete!) before he tries to again belittle those who defend the defenceless i.e. babies in their mothers wombs.I think he just might be testing the water for an even bigger attack. I note you mention your children Sneekkeepete. Tell me, when their mother returned home from having her pregnancies confirmed did she say to you: "Guess what! We're having a fetus! Or did she say to you: "Guess what! "We're having a baby!" Nice talking to the three of you...and have a good life!
Denny