Scout “You are really clutching at straws trying to make out that Col has no respect for women.”

Thankyou for your statement Scout.

I would endeavour to be as honest as possible should I ever need to counsel anyone.

I would put them first and not any religious or moral values of my own, which they might not share.

I believe in treating individuals as individuals and all as equals and worthy of equal respect.

Hence, matters of gender, race, etc. do not figure in my “valuation” of people, merely the qualities they present as individuals(hence, matters of affirmative action I find morally offensive because the very nature of affirmative action is to treat people not as equals).

I even accept people will find God in their own way. Hence I accept some people will think they will find it through organised religion.

Just as some here carry on about women who abort making “bad choices”, I see those who believe the rubbish spewed out by “organised religions” are merely making their own bad choices, for which, one day they will realise the truth and live with the consequences of a life wasted in pursuit of that religious bad choice.

Scout and Col rouge,

You make me sick. We don't care how much you love each other. This isnt a chat room to find a companion. So leave the crap out of your posts and get a life!!

Maker “You make me sick. We don't care how much you love each other. This isnt a chat room to find a companion. So leave the crap out of your posts and get a life!!”

I see you are all for declaring your position and making valid comment to the topic at hand.

I for one could not care less how “sick” you feel.

I could go on ad-nauseum about the nausea which I associate with troll’s who think anyone else cares about the delicacy of their temperament.

As for the abortion debate. I see it as all about individual women deciding, for themselves and free of duress from any other person exactly how their body will be used. It is not about biology. It is not about foetal development. It is about Choice.

I support every individuals right to determine, for themselves exactly how their body will be used. I do that for one reason.

Whatever they choose will affect, first and foremost themselves. It will have no influence over me, my life and what I do. It will have no impact on you, your life and what you will do.

Since it will not affect my life and I will bear no responsibility for their decision, I should not hold any sway over their choice. Likewise, you should hold no sway or have any say either.

Oh the matter of the embryo/foetus. Prior to the moment of birth it is and always has been deemed a part of the woman and as an “attachment” to her body. Moan and wail all you want, it is not a separate person. It has no identity as an “individual” and thus, can make no claim to protection from the cohabitant of the woman’s body in which it is developing, under the laws which we apply when dealing with separate individuals.

Now I suggest you too “get a life” and stop trying to live vicariously by interfering in the lives of pregnant women who do not know you and could not give a stuff about you or our personal beliefs.

Col rouge,

I thought id give you the benefit of the doubt before but you clearly are ignorant. "Prior to the moment of birth it is and always has been deemed a part of the woman and as an “attachment” to her body." You're not even talking facts and as you said about me you are stating your personal belief. Who has it been deemed by anyway. This issue is not something you can "deem". It's about facts. you can't deem when a child is alive. it's black and white, there is no grey area. The report by Market Facts implies that the majority of Australians think that the unborn baby is alive and a separate individual otherwise 51% of Aussies wouldn't be against abortion for non medical reasons. You're talking about the minority when you say it is and always has been deemed........

Maker ” but you clearly are ignorant.”

Prior to the mid 19th century, abortion was not a criminal offence. Criminalisation existed for little more than 100 years. Legal interpretation deems it has been “illegal” for a lot less time than is has been legal

Fact is maker, it is not your body involved and you, therefore do not have the right to interfere in the decisions of the person whose body it is.

That is what matters, the right to exercise freewill. We all have it and it is our prerogative to exercise it.

As for surveys

“Almost two-thirds of Australians support the idea of abortion being legally available”
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Health/Australians-ambivalent-about-abortion-survey/2005/05/02/1114886298279.html?oneclick=true

“"The group has previously refused to provide a copy of the questions used in the research," Senator Allison said.”
http://www.democrats.org.au/news/?press_id=4671

“…doubt on the credibility of the Southern Cross Bioethics Institute survey on attitudes to abortion at the same time as it emerged that the 'independent, non-sectarian and autonomous' Institute is essentially controlled by the conservative Catholic Knights of the Southern Cross.”

http://www.onlinecatholics.com.au/issue51/print.php?page=all

Before you yawn on about surveys, I suggest you come up with an honest one.

Until you do, my research tells me that most people believe that individuals know best for themselves and their decisions invariably produce better outcomes than decisions which are forced up on them by un-involved, meddling and interfering busybodies.

As for me being "ignorant", think what you want, a review of your posts is hardly a scintillating experience.

"maker" indeed, I doubt you could make your mind up without "dogma" to direct you in your every action

I think that Australians, as a whole, tend to wear their hearts on their sleeves and act with whatever emotion they are feeling. This, combined with whatever we've been swallowing lately in the media tends to give, I think, an inaccurate depiction of what Australians really think.

There was so much public outrage at the last legal execution in Australia that we were forced to abolish capital punishment. Now, apparently most of us support it. A yes or no vote on what Australians think is insufficient because it fails to address the sociological reasons behind our choices.

I think we should be wary of statistics formed from quantitative research and realise that 1 + 1 may not always equal 2.

Finally, I think there's a reason why important decisions aren't placed in the hands of the general public. We could put it to the people that we should have twenty more public holidays a year and I dare say most people would answer "yes", in the heat of the moment. Not so sure how good it would be for the country through.

In summary, emotions are strong yet fleeting, and usually irrational; statistics can be very misleading since numbers have no names or faces, and there are procedures in place for determining what "should" and "should not" be and, while they aren't perfect, are certainly safer than the notion of letting the mobs decide.