Martin

That is about as good as you can get with the limitations of words in a book.

Nevertheless it begs the questions any genuine enquirer needs to ask:

What was it that turned an amazingly diverse group of frightened, disillusioned and scattered people into a body of persons, women and men, emboldened to come together after Jesus' death to reflect on and respond to their extraordinary earthly experience with Him.

What is it that has kept together, over millennia, a now worldwide group of people who each week profess a common creed in worship; notwithstanding the scandal of historical division, so human is the Church in some of its ways, that can only be accepted as a work in human progress.

This is a phenomenon that cannot be explained away as a remnant of an age gone by.

My pesonal understanding of the Resurrection is in my experience of residual love from deceased love ones; my grandmother, mother and late wife. Each of them are with me in my heart and memories. This is a common human experience. However, the miracle of the Resurrection is that that presence and knowledge of love can be experienced, as a reality, in me of a man who died 2000 years ago. I understand that such is a gift in response to a seeking faith.

Oh but what a burden it is to share that gift in service to others. It would be so much easier to set my own agenda, own it and take my pride through it. That would be so wonderfully self-autonomous. But it would be a betrayal to those who have gone before us to populate the Abrahamic promise and fulfill the Lord's cry of hope and trust with the anguished opening words of Psalm 21 that concludes : " I will speak of the Lord to the coming generation, and they shall declare his justice to a people, yet to be born: 'these things has the Lord done' ".

Good words Boxgum!

Martin has me going to my own copy of the Roman Catechism and reading the whole section on that part of the creed that “He descended into hell and on the third day he rose again.” There is much that I agree with in all of these statements, particularly 647. However, there is a hint of double entry book keeping as there is in much of what the Holy Office publishes. This is because they refuse to abandon the idea of a supernatural realm existing in parallel with this one and by refusing to abandon natural theology. They continue to mix up Greek concepts of body and soul with the concept of Israel of the resurrection of the dead. So as we read through the catechism we get quite confused as to what is actually meant.

I repeat that the biblical witness is itself contradictory with regards to the nature of the resurrection. What is sure is that the risen one is the crucified one and no other. That the risen one is no ghost, that neither is He just the same Jesus restored to life. The catechism attempts to explain all of this by mixing and matching Greek and Hebrew thought. I am not convinced.

What I am convinced of is the absolute centrality of the resurrection without which we are without hope. Paul tells us that we live in the resurrection. Church celebrates the presence of the risen one each Sunday. What I am wary of is that belief in the resuscitation of Jesus is used as a kind of mini creed that is used to divide the real Christians from the pretend ones.

According to classic black hole theory the matter from giant collapsing bodies gets permanently reduced to a tiny amount, a mere pinpoint, and creates a mind-boggling gravitational field so powerful that nothing can ever escape, not even light. This I find quite problematic. Super massive black holes populating the centre of galaxies is an assumption that also just doesn’t make sense. Although photons and any other material constituents can be distorted in this extreme blast furnace environment, if this was a classic black hole then stars should be falling in instead of explosively moving away from the centre. ........... Of course there is great mystery and we have but minds to wonder why?

Maybe it's an imaginary teddy (god) that creates black holes in the minds of people. e.g. If a man today killed his only son to show how much he loved other people, he would be considered mad and earn society's contempt. Yet many infected people hide underneath the comforting grasp of their teddy cheer leaders who have concocted their web of circular logic making one believe this is some sort of noble loving act by a teddy (god).

If "intimacy ... is at the centre of all love" then a good place to start would be with honesty and a desire for material truth. Ask some beautiful questions.

Did Jesus learn the arts of meditation, yoga, healing, and magic from India during his "wilderness years" and then return to Israel as a healer with enormous powers? (e.g. as an exorcist, to demonstrate necromancy, to practise long periods of fasting and meditation, (40 days in the desert), to perform "miracles".)

Then did he survive the Crucifixion with these "supernatural" powers?

When a sympathetic Jospeh of Arimathea takes Jesus to the tomb he goes with healing herbs rather than embalming herbs. Why would he have done this?

Surviving crucifiction what did Jesus do next? Head back to India to live to a ripe old age in Kashmir?

Would Jesus, as he was going away, simply have said he would come back and pay his friends a visit?

Hi all

To: Peter & all (cont) [my post 2:09:11 PM 7/3/06]

Some time ago I attended a coffee shop & was talking with some people whom I hadn't seen for ages. They asked me how I was coping, & when another individual overheard the conversation, that person said: "I bet you wish that he'd (the offender) been executed?!" My response was an emphatic "No!", to which the individual said: "Well, you couldn't have loved your mum very much!"

That comment from a female pensioner was indicative of what one hears following a tragedy which has been media-hyped. That this person knew none of the facts of the case was not important to her. She had made her judgemental decision without reference to statistics & with very little understanding of my feelings - a direct victim of the crime - or an understanding of the offender.

Sadly, she doesn't stand in isolation. Her method for handling fear & ignorance is to vent bitterness, anger & vengeance. She doesn't understand the consequences of this attitude.

We must not condone the anti-social behaviour of some members in society. And in the wake of that statement, we need to isolate the wrong-doers from the law-abiders. But to judge one flawed part of human's character as indicative of their whole demeanour is also a travesty of justice. The wrong-doer deserves a second chance under a controlled environment. They also deserve the dignity of being re-programmed & re-trained.
(7/3/06)

pegasus (post 2:37:42 PM 7/3/06)

There are two types of sciences - laboratory/test-tube & hypothetical historical.

Evolution is an hypothesis, unable to be proven - just like history. However, evolution-adherents never discuss the theories of Carbon Dating whereby anything which still has C14 in it cannot exceed approximately 50,000-years.

There goes your 70,000-trillion-billion hypothesis!

Einstein & many of the great minds of modern science would be most impressed to hear you regard them as Neanderthals. Some were non-believers until either an event changed their thinking, or they studied (& I mean 'studied') the Holy Bible.
(14/3/06)

Cheers all