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The Forum > Article Comments > AWB Inquiry - the truth, the whole truth ... > Comments

AWB Inquiry - the truth, the whole truth ... : Comments

By Tony Kevin, published 17/2/2006

In setting up the AWB Inquiry Howard threw the Australian wheat trade to the mercies of Commissioner Cole, the Prime Minister of Iraq, and our American and Canadian competitors.

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The Cole enquiry isn't in itself doing all the damage-it is the ALP desperate to win back political credence as a legitimate opposition that is throwing our wheat trade to the wolves. Like it or not the world of commodity trading and large scale commerce in which $300 million can constitute a 'kickback' is not for the faint hearted nor moral idealists.

The 'AWB scandal' like the 'children overboard' issue is more about semantics than deceit. With 'children overboard' kids who couldn't swim ended up in the ocean after their parents paid organised crime syndicates to traffic them illegally-whether the boat sank from parental sabotage or kids were thrown first is irrelevant. Similarly the oil for food programme was inherently flawed and the Volker enquiry pointed out that it is doubtful that any trade with Iraq was done during the subject times without some benefit to the Hussein regime.

It seems to me the left is effectively giving our foes ammunition against us. The US senator elected by the largest wheat growing constituency in America has wisely chosen to shut up- if US companies were subjected to a similar enquiry the dirt would be much deeper. Nonetheless American farmers are grinning at our own self cannabalism as no doubt the French and Germans are too.

How tenuously idealistic it is to constantly assert that Australia has an obligation to lead the world in moral standards and subject our government and business to higher standards of accountability than anywhere else. In the world of big business and trade we are going to get cast aside if the left continues to degrade the art of savvy and neccessarily vicious deal making.

Why can't we start turning the table on Kofi Annan's own son who made huge amounts from 'oil for food' or on the several hundred other companies named in the Volker enquiry. And don't say we need to get our own backyard cleaned up first- we may just get caught out by all our neighbours discarding their dirt in our yard too...
Posted by wre, Friday, 17 February 2006 9:45:59 AM
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This article could be linked to the other 'kafkaesque' article about the sinister machinations of governement designed to subvert process and hide the truth.

But what what a lot of nonsense to blame the left, wre. The left didn't pay the bribes, AWB did. The left didn't expose the bribes, the Canadians who had refused to pay bribes first blew the whistle, then a UN inquiry uncovered the central truth of the bribes. The left didn't set up the Cole Commission, PM Howard did. The left did not cancel the wheat contracts to Iraq, the Iraqi government did. In fact, I find it hard to see any important role the left or the ALP (I don't consider the ALP to be 'left') has played in the fiasco. You can't blame the left for everything, wre.
Posted by PK, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:10:11 AM
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So wre is playing the "shoot the messenger" game. Don't dare criticize a right wing government for corruption. because it's bad for the economy, the only acceptable measure of our country's success.

Now it's the ALP that is to blame for the AWB scandal. Not the poor well meaning AWB businessmen, or the blind eye turning politicians.

Well wre, that is a very slippery slope. What you are saying is that we do not need to expect standards of ethics or morality from our leaders and businessmen - if one other country in the world is corrupt then it's ok for us to be corrupt as well.

Why then do we seek to impose our supposedly superior standards on foreign countries. Democracy for Iraq we proclaim, but let's pray that they don't vote in a fundamentalist or left wing government.

Migrants should adopt the Australian way of life we say, because it is supposedly superior to their own.

The rule of law, law and order, we shout! Then we are happy for prisoners to be abused and denied due process by our allies.

The hypocrisy is breathtaking. The ultimate hypocrisy was Howard's in relation to the picture of the AWB executive with gun in hand. Oh we shouldn't judge him, we have all done silly things when we were overseas, says JH. Funny that, he didn't show such understanding in relation to the similar pictures of David Hicks.
Posted by AMSADL, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:11:53 AM
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Howdy
I guess the place of moral standards and ethical dealing in the cut throat world of vicious deal making is as a preventive. It prevents your competitors using your corruption to undercut your position and destroy your livelihood in the future. If the bribes had not been paid, we may not have sold that wheat in that market at that price. But we may well be in a better position to sell our wheat in any market now.

If the Government had better supervised the process at the time, they may have stopped the bribes and cost us the trade in that market at that time. However, we might be in a better position to sell our wheat in that market and many others now. And, as a bonus, our politicians would be able to point to the value of idealistic ethics rather than the costs of pragmatic corruption.

But hey, what criminal does the crime thinking they will be caught?

Odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:24:48 AM
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That's right guys. Economics is not the only measure of a country's success- welfare, education, health and living standards also contribute. Yet as usual the left can't seem to get past economics 101 and figure out the correlation! However you are absolutely right- I was amiss to blame 'the left' for 'everything'. The ALP can't make up its mind where it sits on the political spectrum because it love fantasising about a social utopia but has realised it needs economics to make it happen. Yet Rudd who is doing the damage to AWB is more a conservative liberal than most Coalition front benchers.

Can't judge ourselves by the standards of other countries? So Australia should become an isolationist island then? Perhaps we can call on Iran or the Shi'te Clerics in Iraq to give a sermon on how irresponsible we were? Should we beg them now for their contacts? As for the Canadians; is Quebec still a part of Canada? If so consult Mr Volker on how many Quebecian companies benefited from the French involvement in oil for food. By the way has anyone noticed that none of the other FORTY ODD countries implicated by Volker have initiated any inquiry?

As for losing the wheat contracts I'm sure that wheat will find a nice home in China. Of course the Chinese may choose to turn their nose up at it because their moral standards are so much higher than our's. Give me a break!

Written with all the self loathing, apologetic nonsense of a left wing Australian. Hope you're consciences have been appeased.
Posted by wre, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:30:05 AM
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Tony,

Well, I can only say “welcome to the real world”.
To put things in perspective, the US farming lobby sooner or later had to break the AWB monopoly. Under the table deals is a common trade practice in large wheat & sugar deals and its practiced by all under different techniques (ie the US uses the US Aid pressure to assist American growers and exporters).

The international trade wars have to be done according to the US & FTA rules of engagement and not the good old monopoly techniques. Sooner or later we need to explore and MATCH the US farming & producers benefits or we can slowly but surely kiss our exports business good bye.

In summary, we need to forget old practices and understand and play by the new rules in order to win, the US rules that is.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:34:31 AM
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Yes Wre we have noticed that the other countries from the Volker enquiry haven't launched investigations but can't you see that was Little Johnnies plan... that has now backfired.

Do you really think he would have launched this enquiry if he knew what was coming out. That's the problem when you run a "Yes Minister" style of Govt that is probably using plausible deniability as it's cover.

All it takes is a staffer to spread around that "if some allegation is proven correct or is correct then don't tell the Minister or his management team and there you have it. Plausible deniability set up in a sentence.

"We didn't know they claim." Nobody told us.

The grilling those poor AWB people got from the Wheat Export Board investigators was really tough : Scroll down this page and see the answers Tim Besley from the Wheat Export Authority gave to the senate enquiry. http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2006/s1570930.htm

So now you want to blame the ALP for the problems that are being caused. As I have said in other posts ... That is what oppositions do... they ask lots of questions and if they didn't they wouldn't be oppositions they'd be knodding dogs.

The AWB has caused this situation and it looks like the Govt and it's agencies didn't properly investigate matters when they were presented to them. Whichever way you cut it the situation is not a good one...

But stop blaming the opposition for doing it's job!! Our Democracy depends on it! And when the Libs are next in opposition they will do exctly the same thing as Labor and they will be right to do it... it will be ther job!
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 17 February 2006 11:34:08 AM
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AMSADL,Opinionated2,
I think you have the arguement by the short and curlies, great posts,
Regards,Shaun
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 17 February 2006 12:24:17 PM
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An interesting article, but an atrocious opening to the comments posted by wre.
If I'm not mistaken, the Cole enquiry has uncovered what appears to be a systematic, continuous pattern of illegal behaviour. And what was wre's response?
Welcome to the jungle, baby.
If you've got the money, honey, we've got your disease.

That illegality exists in international trade is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that possible illegal conduct by an Australian body has been uncovered. It should be thoroughly investigated and, if warranted, charges should be laid. That the same does or does not happen in similar situations in other countries is not relevant to the AWB investigation.

It is the role of the Australian Government to bring diplomatic pressure on other countries to investigate claims concerning the conduct of companies registered in their jurisdiction. Jump up and down about it. Shout to the tree tops. The Australian Government should be commended for bringing about this investigation, and those that would excuse (potentially) criminally conduct should be ashamed of their willingness to depart from the rule of law.

Is it the rantings of only the Left that crime should go unpunished? Is it the fairy-cake dream land of only the idealistic that criminals be held to account?
Not in the Australia I thought I was living in.

If there has been criminal behaviour, let us hope this investigation uncovers it and appropriate steps are taken. This should be common ground between both left and right.
Posted by Alpal, Friday, 17 February 2006 1:56:24 PM
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Ok wre has copped a real bashing but....

(a) What 'crime' has AWB broken? My understanding of the Cole Inquiry isn't that it is investigating 'criminal actions' but rather 'inpropriety'. In Australia 'kickbacks' aren't necessarily illegal and in Africa, Asia and the Middle East such business is totally acceptable-indeed a way of life.

(b) There is little hope of bringing companies in other countries to account (diplomatic pressure or not) because word has it Volker suspected the French, German and Russian governments of DIRECT involvement in dodgy oil for food transactions.

I think it's naive to wave the not in my country banner and expect Australian companies to be the moral standard barers.
Posted by rlindsay, Friday, 17 February 2006 2:47:01 PM
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Wre; long term survival in business and trade is about having good standards under the bench and knowing how we got them.
Posted by Taz, Friday, 17 February 2006 3:23:57 PM
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Wre's world is a scary one were anything bad is caused by the left. Get cancer blame it on the left commy bastards.

You can't stand on the high moral ground if your up to your eyeballs.
for the last poster the AWB seems to have broken a number of Aussie laws international trade laws as well as the oil for food guide lines. best of all they claimed it on tax. But even worse then that they were giving money to Sadam. A chap that was not only making his own country not a nice place but also passively supporting terrorism at best and actively at worst.

When I was a kid my Mum would not let me use the excuse “All my friends were doing it so I did it to”, if she caught me doing something wrong. Apparently this wasn’t the case in some house holds.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 17 February 2006 3:36:51 PM
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RL
It is very interesting to note that people support criminal behaviour in the pursuit of profits. From the Commonwealth Attorney General:

“Since 1999, it has been a criminal offence (Commonwealth Criminal Code Act 1995) to bribe a foreign public official, whether in Australia or in another country. An Australian in another country who bribes or attempts to bribe an official of that country can be prosecuted for bribery in an Australian court.

Australian law provides for up to ten years in prison for Australian citizens, residents and companies found guilty of bribing a foreign public official either in Australia or while in foreign countries. A court could impose a fine instead of, or in addition to, imprisonment.” http://www.ag.gov.au/agd/WWW/criminaljusticeHome.nsf/D2801B61EABE80A2CA256809001328BA/D35A2494C35B6CD1CA256F5600028D8A

It pays to know what is legal if you are doing business because ignorance of the law is no excuse before the law. Further, not to know whether what you are doing is legal or not is negligent, and, if it is a criminal offence, criminal negligence.

It is a pity that the likes of wre are inconsistent in their arguments. If the wheat can find a market in China, then what is the problem with holding the Government to account for poor supervision of the AWB participation in the Oil for Food program? If you are arguing that no damage has been done by the bribes (because the wheat will be sold in China), why berate the opposition for doing its job?

Perhaps because a Chinese buyer could use this little incident to force the price down – after all, the Chinese can say that they are sure the US and Canada are more ethical and honest in their pricing and business practices. Yes, I know the US and Canada are not, but they haven’t been caught yet. Once again, the pigeons of corruption come home to roost at the expense of the wheat farmers. How is this better than ethical dealings in the first place.

And then there is the matter of $100M of the taxpayers’ money involved in this corruption (the tax deduction on $300M).

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Friday, 17 February 2006 3:57:02 PM
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Odsoc- 'bribing'is illegal. But if it is so clear cut that bribery occured in the case of AWB why is the term 'kickback' being coined with such regularity?

It seems the same people who condone cultural relativism in circumstances such as the imposition of customary law or the taking of ten wives don't like the taste when it has a capitalist flavour to it. Should we now turn to examing what Keating knew of 'donations' paid to Suharto and Mahattir? Was it just incidental that Tommy Suharto made billions from road and infrastructure projects both in Indonesia and Australia? Was this a coincidence?

I realise we aren't talking about Suharto now. But this has far ranging implications. It is obvious some of the above posters haven't been exposed to the business world and couldn't stomach it if they were. It is even more obvious that cultural relativism is only popular sometimes. Do companies not do business in Africa, Asia and South America because doing so involves appeasing the ruling regimes and dictators? Do companies stp taking foreign officials on golf trips or signing contracts that stipulate transport by state owned means
Posted by rlindsay, Friday, 17 February 2006 4:19:14 PM
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What a joke, odsoc. Has it ever dawned on you that just about any migrant from a third world nation would have had to commit the crime of bribery of an official numerous times before they even got their first kid into school. Would you bar them from entry to the country on the basis of their criminal past?

AWB has merely done the same thing that every single Iraqi had to do to even scratch themselves, let alone do business, under the Baathist regime. So are you seriously suggesting that our exporters should refuse to do business with corrupt regimes anywhere in the world? And do you really believe that would enhance our standing in the world community? We wouldn't have a wheat industry at all if you had your way
Posted by Perseus, Friday, 17 February 2006 5:41:29 PM
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The critical thing is that the AWB was aiding and abetting an enemy, a country with which we had been to war, were in long-term dispute with and were soon to be at war with again - the latter being evident long before hostilities resumed; and doing so in direct contravention of UN resolutions aiming at constraining Saddam;s capacity to develop WMD. Whatever one's views on bribery, this is surely unconscionable. The AWB put their own self-interest ahead of any other consideration, and need a wholesale clear out at the least. As for the single market, I've seen several studies over the years which found no evidence that it generated higher returns, it may help the smaller farmers but stifles innovative products and marketing from the more entrepreneurial. Give the guys who want to trade solo their head, and I'm sure that they'll market for smaller farms as well.

As for the Government, the best we can say is culpable negligence, it's hard to see how they could have not known what was going on if they applied due diligence to publicly available information.
Posted by Faustino, Friday, 17 February 2006 6:31:26 PM
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rlindsay,

What do you reckon if a kickback was falsley claimed as trucking expenses - would that be illegal under Aussie taxation laws?

I'm pretty sure that isn't impropriety... what do you thnk?
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 17 February 2006 6:54:35 PM
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Interesting that rlindsay and Perseus join wre in defense of potentially criminal activities.
Firstly, the investigation is into potential breaches of Australian law, not just "impropriety".
Here is an extract from the Ausgov website on the Cole enquiry:

"By Letters Patent dated 10 November 2005, the Hon TRH Cole AO RFD QC was appointed Commissioner to conduct an inquiry into and report on whether decisions, actions, conduct or payments by Australian companies mentioned in the Final Report (“Manipulation of the Oil-for-Food Programme by the Iraqi Regime”) of the Independent Inquiry Committee into the United Nations Oil-for-Food Programme breached any Federal, State or Territory law."

Secondly, the suggestion that bribery is a way of life throughout Asia, Africa and the Middle East is an extraordinary claim. No evidence is offered in support of this claim. I've worked in Japan and South Korea and was never once offered a bribe, never offered a bribe myself and never saw any evidence of such activity.
From my experience, it simply isn't as prevalent as some would have you believe.
These countries, self evidently, are not located in the Middle East, but they are two of the three biggest economies in Asia. I'm not saying that no bribery occurs, but laws in SK and Japan concerning corruption are broadly analogous to Australia's. Recent high-profile prosecutions in these two countries demonstrate genuine law-enforcement attempts.

But focus on what is relevant - there is an investigation into potentially criminal conduct. Prima facie there appears to be a breach, the question is the relevant intent.
It might find criminal conduct, it might not.
All Australians should support the rule of law because it underpins our society - remember "started by a document, not a war".
An attack on the investigative process itself shows a deep-rooted contempt for the law, as do suggestions of:
"oh, c'mon, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, everybody does it, why shouldn't we?"

Or maybe wre, rlindsay and Perseus would prefer bribery to be legal in Australia... yeah, that would lead to a better country.
You must really love this place.
Posted by Alpal, Friday, 17 February 2006 7:00:31 PM
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Remember Graham Richardson and "Whatever it takes"? Remember Whitlam and the Khemlani affair? Gareth Evans and Cheryl Kernot? The whiteboard affair?

In the world of political grubbery I think the sides are about even.
Posted by Craig Blanch, Friday, 17 February 2006 9:15:47 PM
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Sheesh, so many theorists out there, so few understand realpolitik that sometimes applies.

The US and EU have been playing dirty for years and years, with all their subsidies. But thats ok it seems. AWB had one job, to outsmart them and move wheat for Aussie growers at the best possible price. I'm told that the Iraq market added 10-15$ a tonne to the pool value. AWB sold the wheat and added internal transport fees
for delivery. All quite legal. Approved by the UN.

Perhaps they suspected that some kickbacks were being paid to some people. Perhaps they also suspected that 2000 other companies were doing the same. From the news they would also have known that Albright said it was quite acceptable if half a million Iraqis died, due to sanctions against Iraq.

I don't think its AWBs job to be ethicists. In that case we would need to boycott America. AWB moved wheat on behalf of Australian growers, competing with American and European taxpayers, not with other growers. If there were ethical questions, it was the UNs role to ask them. Companies do what they do, ie trade, let others ask the questions if they feel there is a problem.

Australian taxpayers are free to offer to pay higher taxes and susbiside wheat, as is done in America and Europe, if they want.
Then we can get all high and mighty. Meantime farmers have not even been compensated for money lost due to the initial sanctions against Iraq, even though Govt said it would. So who is unethical here?
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 17 February 2006 10:15:18 PM
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OOps rlindsay,

It may be that the plot has just thickened for the AWB. See http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1572310.htm

If the allegations are proven against the AWB then they may not only owe the farmers $300million but IF they claimed the transport costs as a tax deduction they may owe the ATO another $90 million plus fines...

For all those who argued kickbacks are OK because everyone else does it ... Congratulations you have been proven wrong!

It begs the question ... If as you guys allege this is all standard practise in the Middle Eastern and Asian countries how do other companies claim the kickbacks they pay in their accounts?

I can see a nest of worms opening up here... OOps anyone want to argue kickbacks are a good thing anymore?
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 18 February 2006 12:06:12 PM
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Howdy again WRE, RL, Perseus et al,

First the issue of cultural relativism: I didn't raise it as my argument is solely about potential breaches of Australian Law, one either supports acting in accordance with the law of this land or one does not. A business operator who was not negligent would get a legal opinion on the balance of probabilities of their proposed action being legal and then act in good faith. Hiding, dodging and covering-up seem to me to be inconsistent with such good faith.

As to the silliness of Perseus,
"... just about any migrant from a third world nation would have had to commit the crime of bribery of an official numerous times before they even got their first kid into school. Would you bar them from entry to the country on the basis of their criminal past?"
Firstly, at the time of your proposed bribery, these potential immigrants are not Australian citizens and, thus, not subject to Australian Law (which is why unethical companies often have a "local partner" to do their dirty work). Secondly, such checks as to criminal background within the country of origin's laws are (supposedly) routine, but we had best not get into the performance of dept. immigration, eh?

The article and the debate are about the damage done to Australia's trading reputation by the actions of the AWB and the Government's handling of governance of the monopoly and of the participation in the Oil for Food program. It is not about left vs right or political grubbery on both sides or any other sideshow. My argument is that the option of complicity or negligence for AWB executives, the Government, and Public Servants is unlikely to do our trading reputation any good, and is likely to diminish it.

To opinionated2, Alpal and others who have further enlightened me, thanks.

Odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Saturday, 18 February 2006 1:35:08 PM
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I’ve read the incoming contributions on this thread with interest. I have posted on my personal website tonykevin.com the three pieces I have had published on the AWB over the past nine days. Anyone who reads these three published commentaries will see my conclusion that the main victims are first and foremost, the needy Iraqi children who were deprived of $300 million worth of food and medicines they desperately needed; and secondly, Australian wheat farmers who now risk losing their vital Middle Eastern markets to North American competitors.

I lay the main blame for the potential loss of this market on the stupidity and recklessness of the Howard Government in the years 2000-2003, in trying to at the same time maintain Iraq as a major Australian wheat customer, while treacherously preparing with the US to invade that country; and then in having the stupidity and cowardice in 2005-2006 to succumb meekly to American pressure to set up a judicial inquiry, that would inevitably uncover the whole sorry mess the AWB got into

I take no pleasure in what AWB executives have been going through in the Cole inquiry. They were not putting graft money paid to Saddam’s officials in their own pockets – they were trying to protect a major Australian growers’ market that was being subjected to gross market interference from the provocative actions of the Howard gang (which, like Dick Cheney, couldn’t shoot straight). .

What worries me now is that in the already long-running media focus on the AWB’s misdemeanours, the Howard government is as usual tiptoeing away from the mess, and may yet avoid the blame that should properly be sheeted home to itself. I would. like to see Messrs Howard, Hill, Downer and Vaile up there testifying before Commissioner Cole, to take the investigative heat that properly should be turned on them now.

But Labor and the media are visibly running out of puff on the story.

Tony Kevin, Canberra 18 Februar
Posted by tony kevin, Saturday, 18 February 2006 7:15:48 PM
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Tony,

I am not sure I agree with you with the Govt tip toeing away....

An article in the Courier Mail Qld. today (Saturday) by Peter Charlton alleges that 3 Govt members ...Ex Deputy PM John Anderson, Community Services Minister John Cobb and Malcolm Turnball all allegedly disposed of AWB shares back in either 2004 & 2005 when questions were being raised about the AWB.

The article also alleges that Mr Anderson neglected to notify the change in situation regarding his shareholding in the AWB to the register of parliamentarian's interests. The article alleges that he sold his shares on Oct 10 & 11 last year and only filed a declaration to the Clerk of the House of Reps on Thursday.

It's an interesting article on page 28 in the Inside Mail section of the paper under the heading "Wheat documents hard to find". I can't find it on the web yet so you may have to buy a copy. I think it should be on the front page of the Courier Mail and on there website as it is a most informative article.

One thing I have noticed on this thread though is the defence of doing business by what they alleged to be the Middle Eastern way has dried up... Maybe people are choking on sand...Ha!

Odsoc and thanks for your valuable input into this thread also...

WE are the little fish in a big pond and sadly the wheat growers of Australia appear to have been let down badly.
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 18 February 2006 9:50:23 PM
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Tony
The only way someone could prove that the AWB, the Government, or any Australian wound up with laundered money in their pockets is with the equivalent of a Jack Herbert, and, like you, I don't think one exists here. Anyway, the Cole Inquiry doesn't run to reverse flows of money, and it would be almost impossible to track any such thing through the various labrynths of world banking.

That the Government will not suffer electorally is a given, because the average Australian probably agrees with the "everyone does it" notion, just like they agree with the "might makes right" notion, until it bites them directly: then they want to blame someone else.

Odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Sunday, 19 February 2006 1:05:52 PM
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Re AWB stuff-up.

From an ignorant old Aussie cockie:

Questions and suggestions?

1. If we have lost our wheat trade to Islamic countries owing to partnering America why has this not been aired to the Australian public previously seeing we are now in the third year of the occupation of Iraq?

2. Seeing that the US is the main instigator of the attack on Iraq, how is it that America is said to have already gained a contract for over a million tonnes of wheat with the new Iraqi government - and if true does this prove that the new Iraqi government is indeed a US puppet job?

Suggestions:

1. If it is John Howard who is the main culprit, maybe he should be subsidising his Aussie farmers similar to what his Bosom buddy George W’ is doing in Pax Americana.

2. It is interesting that John Howard has suddenly come out in support of the cockies, when with most of Australia’s income coming from pit-stocks, iron-ore, etc, the farmers had been forgotten. Another reason is, of course, though the wheat farmers have greatly increased their yields, modern technology has greatly decreased the amount of bodies doing the job, this greatly decreasing the government’s dependence on country votes. This is so different to the USA, where the Bush regime in its first year, allowed 80 billion dollars worth of subsidies over the next ten years, mainly to gain the votes of the huge graingrowing Midwest, gaining swads of votes alone from cities like Denver, Oklahoma City, and so on. It is over here in Western Australia, that wheat cockies have already got the wind-up, the new head of our National Party, giving the okay to breakaway from the Libs. There has also been a suggestion that we change the name back to the Country Party, becoming once again classic independent agrarian socialists be it either right or left, as we became during the Great Depression.

George C, WA - Bushbred
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 19 February 2006 4:45:24 PM
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Bushbred,

I'm afraid John Howard has somehow gotten himself into an amazingly strong position. He has an opposition that looks weak, he has survived Senator McGauran's move from the Nationals to the Libs, our troups are still in Iraq (luckily no deaths) and he will probably scrape through the AWB problems.

The Nationals I'm afraid look destined to become a weaker party in the next election. The Libs really want to rule outright...this is proven by accepting Senator McGauran.

Country people have been let down for years by Govts. but had hope with the Nationals and Libs alliance. Your demographics are working against you and so you have become more and more marginalised.

See how roughly Senator Barnaby Joyce was dealt with when he had the nerve to actually do what he is elected to do... to represent the State of Qld. in the Senate. Senator Joyce does the right thing under the constitution and he is villified by Libs and Nats alike. Remember John Howard always gets others to do his work whilst he is arms length in the background.

If truth be known the Liberals are probably after all National party seats and if it wasn't for the fact the Libs are so weak in Qld. State Govt., the Nationals probably wouldn't be in coalition now. As you know, from John Howard's history, he is prepared to wait as things fall into place. One of his only virtues I'm afraid is patience.

If you reform the Country Party I'm afraid you will only divide the bush's vote further giving the libs more seats. Your only hope is that Johnny, behind closed doors, is actually trying to do a deal with Bush... but Iraq is the market the USA farmers have wanted for years. If Johnny does do the deal with the USA he will hold the country voters in his hand and be one step closer to no longer needing the Nationals.
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 19 February 2006 10:45:12 PM
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To Opinionated,

Thanks mate for the further info', which really only substantiates what I was getting at. The Australian wheat cockies have been sold out. Indeed further news I got today, should leave young wheat cockies in a cold sweat.

Talking to Mick McGinnis, a worried member of the
WA Wheat Board executive, he informed me that the main reason Howard and Mark Vaile have panicked is because they have just discovered that Howard's committing Australia to the attack on Iraq has jiggered practically all of our wheat contracts to other Islamic countries. Which, incidently, according to McGinnis, it is just about the lot. And, of course, it looks like our bosom buddies, the Yanks, will get the Iraqi contracts because the US will keep on running Iraq, per Paul Bremer's original plan.

Unfortunately, most of our generation's grandkids, college educations notwithstanding, don't seem to have a clue what is really going on - over-education having seemingly robbed them of the old bush insightliness. Certainly these kid's faith in Johnny Howard and Iron Bar Tuckey is due for a shock, resulting unfortunately in a few bush suicides. Yes, mate, bad planning by Howard and Co regarding our wheat contracts could be a as bad as that. Why do you think John Anderson quit the job of Deputy Prime Minister and National Party leader. Under Howard, he could see it coming, not eased one bit by the bi-lateral trade deal.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 19 February 2006 11:56:01 PM
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Bushbred,

Thanks for enlightening me as well. I know when the Iraq war was muted people expressed a worry that it could affect "all wheat sales" to the Islamic countries. I guess what you have stated, sadly, proves this may be correct. Let's hope we are wrong!

Sadly also it may have more far reaching consequences than that for the cockies. We sell sheep to the Muslim countries and a whole heap of other commodities. If the Muslim countries stop our wheat they may stop everything and we have nothing to bargain with. We are a little dot of a country compared to the USA which itself is about 1/3 of the world market. We don't have huge buying power to assist us to trade with Islamic countries like the Yanks have.

The USA has at least got its might and it now has the scapegoat for itself - the Aussies did it...

The AWB problems also divert the attentions away from the USA companies that have done similar things... we seem to be the ones who have been caught.

Farmers have enough to cope with without having extra burdens placed upon them with the Howard Govt's "All the way with USA" policies that won't benefit them. The Howard Govt actually think we are world players like Keating did... amazing!

One other thing - look who is missing from the list on the coalition for the willing http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_coalition.htm

That's right it is Canada ... another huge competitor of ours on world markets. Canada may be the biggest beneficiary of our joining the war in Iraq adding to it's ability to sell in the Islamic world.
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 20 February 2006 12:46:33 AM
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opinionated, you are right. Canada has cleverly positioned itself as a non-aligned country. It doesn't do whatever the USA wants. It is not the subject of terrorist attacks. It doesn't offend its trading partners and their allies by invading their country. It is a prosperous nation. Pretty smart, I reckon. Ask John Howard, why can't Australia be a bit more like that?
Posted by PK, Monday, 20 February 2006 8:18:46 AM
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A hanging offence.

Congratulations Tony Kevin. The mendacity of the Howard government is again on show. Apart from bending over backwards to deny the undeniable it is hiding behind the AWB's company status arguing that it only has remote oversight over its business operations through the Wheat Export Authority. Although this is a blatantly dishonest excuse the disaster would then be the direct result of its failed small government and privatisation philosophy. The remedy here is not to create more wheat export companies but, instead, to bring the AWB back under direct Government control. Australia is not the US. A government managed monopoly over wheat exports makes perfect sense here. For the Howard government to argue now that it served the nation because, after all, the AWB managed to sell the wheat, is appalling. At what price to the nation? Either way this Government deserves to be sacked. The mismanagement is gross. Ministerial responsibility? Prime Ministerial responsibility. It doesn't exist here! Can anyone explain to me what is so great about the Westminister system?

What is the mechanism whereby the Parliament can now pass a motion of No confidence in this Government and force new elections? What is the Opposition doing to find a majority, either in the House of Representatives or the Senate, to stop this Government? Will the ALP reverse its misguided opposition to Blocking Supply? Having abandoned socialist principles long ago is it talking to dissident National Party and Liberal Party MPs in country seats whose concern about the wheat scandal rightly must be enormous? How can the NP live with its Liberal Party Coalition partner? What happens if the wheat sales dry up to Islam countries?? Could it contemplate offering a Coalition deal with the ALP? Or would it just disappear from the radar altogether?

Klaas Woldring,
Pearl Beach, 2256
Posted by klaas, Monday, 20 February 2006 1:17:52 PM
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The last few posts have the rueful ring of truth about them. I hate to say "I told you so" - my father's family were country people from the Forbes-Bathurst area ands rural hardship distresses me greatly. I've been trying to warn Australians about the criminal irresponsibility of Howard's foreign ande national security policies for the last five or six years, along the lines of the points that PK, Opinionated2 and Busdbred are making now. It is a tragedy that our highly-paid foreign policy gurus in Canberra - both in governmewnt and big media - didn't think about all this then - or if they did, simply mocked our warnings. Dick Woolcott, General Peter Gration, and the rest of the Group of 43 former military and diplomats (I was one of them) tried to warn not to invade Iraq. But the Howard Gang thought they knew it all, they did not need any advice from siperannuated former officials . Australia's rural economy will now pay for that arrogance and stupidity.

My advice to the Nationals - get rid of your Quislings and turncoats - not just the ones who have crossed over to the Libs, bit those who are Libs in Nationals clothing. Rebadge as The Country Party - a proud name - and regreoup around leaders like Barnaby Joyce and Fiona Nash, Bring in Independents - Windsor, Andren, Katter and Bruce Haigh too. Become a new independent party , cut the cord to Howard.

With the right candidates you would be a small and inflential independent party able to wxercise real leverage and prevent new Howard mad military adventures, eg a war on Iran. That is a real risk now - think of what it would do to our rural exports. Howard is screwing you, and will go on screwing you unless you do something about it now
Posted by tony kevin, Monday, 20 February 2006 1:18:12 PM
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Exactly Tony Kevin,

What are these people waiting for? We need a new political alignment in Australia and the present crisis could well be the catalyst to achieve that situation provided that the progressive country people take the initiative.

There is already a core of such a new independent party in existence. But there is a lot more to be fixed in Australia than restoring the viability and independence of the bush. They should not go back to what was the Country Party but look forward on behalf o the entire nation. The two-party tyranny has lost its way, there is basically no real reformist zeal in the political establishment left.

Klaas Woldring.
Posted by klaas, Monday, 20 February 2006 1:52:01 PM
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I think a few people ignore the real reason we went to Iraq. Personally I still think its tied up with the fact that Howard wanted to get into George's good books, to get that free trade agreement with the US.

Australian produce is still locked out of many markets, particularly Europe. So Howard wanted to ensure that we had at least free access to one large market. So a nominal support was given for Iraq, ie. as few people as possible, Johnnie got the big tick from George for it and the free trade agreement was signed.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 20 February 2006 2:01:56 PM
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AWB Tony Kevin:

"something is rotten in the state of Denmark" (Hamlet.Act1.Sc4) best describes the alarming position Australia finds it's self.

"fair is foul and fool is fair" (the Bard.Act1.sc1) Corporate Oz. Where the Big Australian. BHP Billiton disgraces it self in conniving to use it's immense resources to defraud the Commonwealth, loses face and cast a unredeemable shadow on Business ethics ( mission statement ) for the rest Of Corporate Aust to emulate ! Indeed.

As the saga unfolds, our illustrous PM becomes more embroiled in complicity, who knows where the Cole Inquiry will ultimately end ! This may be the trigger to finally unseat a pathological, systemic, mendacious charlatan from the Lodge ! Ironically, his holier-than-thou appraisal will have much more bitter ramifications than a mere $300 M. It will ruin lively-hoods, destroy a National Commodity icon and tarnish forever our Global credibility ! The aftermath threatens not only the decimation of the Wheat Board, it will affect the export of live animals, meat, sugar, cereals etc the bulk of export trade less ores,coal,gas etc. The inescapable fact we are living beyond our means will reinforce Politician's notions : Labour, Democrats, Greenies, the Oz economy is on shaky grounds. One blunder, is one too many ?

Had it not been for Kofi Annan ( Oct.2005 )who kick-started this regrettable fiasco, the Cole Inquiry would not have eventuated, even though we were well aware of the trepidations of Andrew Lindbery (1996) AWB, covertly tried to conceal. There will be other casualty's in the process, but with a Government in damage control, it is unlikely the chief proponents will ever be brought to trial, much less castigated. The onerous procedures of promotions, Order of Australia, plum UN postings, etc will ensure - " and thus I clothe my naked villiany with old odd ends, sloh forth of holy writ, and seem a saint, when most I play the devil " Shakespeare.

continued..
Posted by dalma, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 1:30:07 PM
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The UN Volker Inquiry implicated 3 Australian Companies in the ' oil for food Programme 'We know there dozen's of bit players involved in the reconstruction of Iraq. A growth Industry, the shonks are working overtime in Canberra lobbying the 'lush ' contracts even though the 'pickings' are in reality what is left after the US's Haliburton et al and local Iraqi Business's have thoroughly 'gouged the eyes out' of Iraq's work program.

BHP to their discredit, 1995 arranged for a $5 M line of credit through DFO, to grease Saddam's unequivocal support into accepting AWB's proposal to 'bribe' him.

In light of these revelations, and then later selling the 'debt' to a shelf company Tigris Petroleum, should have sent 'alarm bells' ringing. Yet, paradoxically, the whole shenigans was conveniently sidelined. What is more beffling, they attempted to recuperate their expenses by applying to the Tax Office for 'business exemptions' with the tacit approval of DFO ? The plot get murkier ! The juxtaposition would certainly have failed if it didn't have the sanctions of a collusive Government.

One would hasten to ask where was the ONA (Office of National ASSessment) ASIO, DIO ( Dept Intelligence Office) and myriad Organisations involved with security of our Nation ? The mental and moral vacuum in the way we do Business in Oz ? The much vaunted Business ETHICS, mission statements and adjuvant phantasmagorical company slogans are realistically... bullsh !

The Fact, Public Servants have been indemnified and sinisterly ' gagged 'is testament we are not fair dinkum about the truth. Of course, as some repeat mantras like: " it wont be the last ". Not by a long shot !.Meanwhile, the ASIC and ATO should be rubbing their hands in glee, in anticapation of prosecutions in Australia's Biggest Corporate Fraud.

The fallout will most likely be hushed up. Stakeholders, whistleblowers, and rah rah's will wax lyrical and adopt the general, traditional attitude of playing the piano on the ground floor of the brothel, and affecting neither to know nor care what goes on upstairs ?

Cheers
Posted by dalma, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 2:05:11 PM
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How utterly unsurprising- The usual suspects out bashing John Howard. Can I ask where they were when Whitlam was busy deceiving the treasury and Keating was appeasing Suharto and making his huge extended family rich? Howard will go down as one of Australia's greatest PM's. If certain segments of the community don't like it tough. He's won 4 elections, will win a fifth and is popular!

Great to see Germany, Canada and America have picked up where AWB left off. Their inquiries are obviously on hold for the time being-but at least we can meet with the Mullahs in Iraq with a clear conscience. I doubt any charges will be laid as a result of Cole's investigations though and the left will again fail to land a decisive blow against JH. This is solely because most Australians see through the duplicity of its arguments and despise the ever present 'johnny bashing' which it seems is the only policy the left has.
Posted by wre, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 2:08:39 PM
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dalma

You asked "One would hasten to ask where was the ONA (Office of National ASSessment) ASIO, DIO (Dept Intelligence Office) and myriad Organisations involved with security of our Nation".

I suggest you read a former spook's account that government departments (like DFAT) knew exactly what AWB was doing - and Howard introducing the issue of intelligence agencies is just a smokescreen (an effective one too).

Andrew Wilkie (formerly of ONA) wrote in the Age http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/spies-views-on-awb-unimportant/2006/02/16/1140064198210.html?page=1

"The discussion in the media about whether or not the intelligence agencies advised the Howard Government about AWB's misconduct is a red herring, evidence again that politicising intelligence can be fruitful for politicians.

...this time it is outsiders - former spooks and journalists - who are helping to take some of the heat off the Government by talking about intelligence agencies failing to warn of AWB's mischief in Iraq.

The Government must love this distraction...

My own observation during a trip for ONA in 2002 into Jordan was that the handful of Australian embassy officials in Amman were kept busy with wheat business. In fact so pre-occupied with facilitating AWB's business with Iraq were [DFAT] staff - they routinely accompanied AWB officials on their trips to Baghdad - that any suggestion AWB was able to conceal serious misconduct is implausible.

The official Australian assistance to AWB was well known in Canberra. At every step the Australian diplomats based in Jordan cabled Australia and copies were always sent to numerous people, including across the road in Parliament House.

In other words, the Government hardly needed input on AWB from spooks because it was already operating hand-in-glove with the wheat marketing company, just as it is now with Deputy Prime Minister Mark Vaile heading off to Iraq with the head of AWB.

The media are letting us down, again, on this matter. Intelligence stories excite people and it is unsurprising that journalists are always on the look-out for an angle..."

While Howard is a relatively honest PM he's fooling the lefties using the spook distraction.
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 2:46:16 PM
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Response to Yabby's post (20/2)

You are perfectly correct but the prize wasn’t worth the trouble at all, to the contrary. This is the cost of Howard’s unspeakable subservience to the US.

Here is a short excerpt from my new book AUSTRALIA - Republic or US Colony? <www.lulu.com/156234>. It is the start of a section on the Free Trade Agreement with the US:

The Free Trade Agreement with the United States

“The early drive for the FTA (2002) came from the Australian US Free Trade Agreement Business Group (AUSTA). AUSTA, the principal lobby group, stated on its website that it “seeks deep integration” with the US economy and argued that “the benefits would be felt especially in the areas of manufactures and investment”. At a time when the subservience of the Howard Government to the US’s military adventurism was already a growing concern to the nation did it make sense to foster further integration? AUSTA certainly thought so.

They claimed:

“The Points in favour: An FTA strengthens the long-term strategic relationship with the United States; Australia cannot afford to assume that the defence relationship will be enough to maintain strong ties with the US in the long term; the US is now using Free Trade Agreements as measures of special relationships”.

There seemed to be no notion at all that the defence relationship itself could be a liability. To the contrary. AUSTA encouraged holding on to and deepening that relationship by cementing its economic ties further with the US, no matter what. “

END of Excerpt
Posted by klaas, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 3:15:12 PM
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What kind of "real world"?

Dalma takes a cynical view of business ethics and that is not surprising here.
Business ethics has been on the skids in Australia in a big way as we all know. This situation endangers the trend still further.

Apologists for the Howard government claim that in the international wheat trade critics of the Howard Government have to understand the "real world". That "real world" is corrupt and unethical, they claim, and Australia has no option but too play along to survive and sell the wheat and whatever else. "Everybody is doing it like that", we are told. In this manner the huge bribe to Saddam is rationalised. Pardon me? This view must be challenged right here, and vigorously, because it could destroy this nation if it is accepted and spreads. It is Australia's call, through its ELECTED Government and its specialised controlling public agencies, to determine on what terms Australian wheat will be sold and to whom. Of course the Government had the option to say NO in Iraq. It could have looked for other markets or store the harvest. Australians must determine in what sort of "real world" they want to trade. It can help shape such that world for the better. The opposite happened. Surely, the responsibility rests squarely with the Howard Government.

Klaas Woldring,
Author of Business Ethics in Australia and New Zealand, Essays and Cases, Nelson ITP, 1996
Posted by klaas, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 3:29:44 PM
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everyone is discussing bribes surely this is really treason.
Australia was preparing to invade Iraq whilst AWB was funding the enemy. Some of the money ended up in Palestein paying the families of suicide bombers in breach of the anti terrorist laws.

This is more than just a bribery scandal.
Posted by admiral, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 5:04:08 PM
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As an old retired cockie going on 85, it can be seen you are not a politician, Tony, but a real honest to goodness insightly non-politico, from whom, we hope, our future tellers of our present rotten global history will be made.

As a very disgusted old bugger with overseas honours in international relations during the Cold War, there could be much more to tell about trade with non-Western countries. We were told by our American tutors, that trade with non-Western nations, was very prone to immoral bargaining and pay-offs, something our so-called honest Westerners will have to put up with. But better to make the deal, because it often proves beneficial to both sides.

To digress a little, regarding honesty in our present government, mixed farmers, and cattle-owners are still angry about a shipment of suspected foot and mouth infected Brazilian carcase meat landed in NSW last year. The report was graphically given by George Negus over SBS Dateline. But then the news of it, according to reports, was cleverly hidden from the public by we know who.

George C, WA - Bushbred
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 6:12:56 PM
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Klaas,
I think everyone involved has to accept their share of the responsibility for the AWB fiasco including the AWB executives, the Iraqi officials, the UN, Australian officials and the Government: it sheets home to all according to their respective responsibilities.

However, I do think that Australia and many other nations are victim to a false representation of conservatism. The kind presented by WRE when they accuse everyone who disaggrees with them of leftism or Howard bashing. Under this representation of conservatism, the person doing the representing says something along the lines of:

"This is how things were. Things were better then. Things should be the same now."

I say this is false because a truer representation of conservatism says something along the lines of:

"Honesty and integrity are important. They have been important in the past. Even though things have changed, they are still important. We have to find ways to make them work for us now."

But 'neo-conservatism' labels such a view as "liberal", or "progressive", or "elitist" and disparages it as leftist, or sentimental, or impractical. It is noteworthy that they don't use "radical" because it is they who are "radical". However, honest conservatives are often fooled by the rhetoric. They miss that the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater: in this case 'honesty and integrity'. The result is semantically empty rhetoric: meaningless propaganda.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 8:17:13 PM
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"It could have looked for other markets or store the harvest. Australians must determine in what sort of "real world" they want to trade."

Klaas, the real world is that other markets are corrupted by US and
EU subsidies. Its a dirty world out there, usually made dirty by
Govts, as mentioned above. At the end of the day, its the farmers
wheat. AWB were told to find the best paying markets by the farmers.
Iraq added about 8-15$ a tonne to the pool value.

Now if people want to preach ethics and morality, lets see some change from the world's first world Govts. 2000 companies were involved with breaking sanctions, so clearly it was common as chips.
Its just that Australia is busy investigating the whole thing more then others have done.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 9:18:58 PM
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I just think that alot of posters here have their own political agenda, or are ignoring the difference between politics and realpolitik, so I will give my interpretation of the way I read things, you are free to tell me where I am wrong :)

After Clinton finished his term, sadly the Americans elected George,
who is not the brightest button on the planet. Johnny had to make do with what was available, in the end we need to get on with America, we have little choice.

Afghanistan had a moral reason behind it, so we supported it. Iraq was largely a Neocon +Cheney plan. The West is hooked on Arab oil after all. Australia went along with it, we needed that free trade agreement with America, so we sent a few troups to Iraq, mind you,
as few as possible. Johnny and George snuggled up together in so called mutual harmony, we got the trade agreement...

The farmers really don't care who is fighting with whom, thats politics, not wheat growing. They need to survive to pay bills.
Australian farmers are as efficient as it gets, but they can't compete with the US treasury or the European treasury. AWB played the game as best as it could, to obtain maximum value for farmers,
that is their role in a highly corrupted market. Aussie taxpayers
are not interested in subsidies, so farmers have to play with what
is available to survive in a corrupt world market.

Labour thinks this is the big chance. They have lost 4 elections, so perhaps some dirt will sink the Libs, so they are peddling as hard as they can on this one. If elections can't get rid of Johnny, perhaps this one just might....
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 21 February 2006 11:13:18 PM
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Yabby
Given that the responsibility of the AWB is to get the best price for Australian wheat farmers without any constraints, you have an argument. However, on all corporations in Australia, there are legal constraints. Some of these legal constraints have to do with what is acceptable business practice.

Would you advocate that we free corporations from these constraints? If so, which constraints can we dispense with? Why these constraints and not all constraints?

What you are, in effect, arguing is that it is OK to break the law in pursuit of profit. Maybe the AWB is special and should be given a dispensation to break the law because it is such a corrupt market. Maybe they should be able to take the families of foreign officials hostages in order to secure contracts - arguably, that would be more effective, and probably cheaper, than bribes, therefore more profitable.

It is not a matter of preaching ethics, it is a matter of whether corporations have to abide by the law, and whether the government is responsible for the administration of the regulations it imposes.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 8:46:14 AM
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Could it be that Little Johnny & the boys in the Govt are developing selective amnesias? Is it true they now look like they have been caught with their pants down? It's time we got these guys & all their staff & public servants before the Cole commission under oath and questioned them severely on what they knew. The Sgt Schultz approach of "I know nothing! Nothing! is starting to wear thin.

When Mr Cole made his plea yesterday for people to come forward he neglected to mention the penalties for those who know something and don't... Does anyone know what they are?

Suddenly after all this time we find a memo sent to many Govt departments including the office of the PM warning that the Iraqi's were seeking kickbacks and everyone knew about it http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18230689-2,00.html

Is the PM in denial or now just hanging on for his political career?

Looky, Looky .... which clever country has stepped in to fill the hole left by this AWB fiasco? No troups, no all the way with USA policy but one heck of a wheat contract.

http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,18234867-31037,00.html

PK and I told you so.

Little Johnny is certainly no President Truman.... Does the buck stop at everyone elses desk but yours PM?

On the single desk sales process ... please keep it so that the farmers are kept in a strong positon in relation to the rest of the world... but don't allow yourselves to be tricked into believing that is the issue...

The single desk doesn't have to pay kickbacks.
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 12:09:48 PM
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US Alliance becoming counterproductive?

I note from reading several contributions here that many still believe that Australia has no option but to along with the US and support that country in such foolish ventures as the war in Iraq. The subservience is not just inherent in the behaviour of the PM but also that of many major party politicians. However, this really is past-oriented, WWII and Cold War thinking. The original motivation for the Alliance has no validity anymore whatever. Has it occurred to discussants that the close cooperation with the US is actually becoming a distinct problem for Australia? The US is not only quite unpopular in the world but it is also grossly overstretched financially and in a military sense. The need for oil is a principal motivator to interfere in situations where it shouldn't be. The US needs help from us but not the help we have been giving it. A more neutral foreign policy would this country well in my view.

Klaas Woldring
Posted by klaas, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:34:16 PM
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Subsidise Australian farmers if need be!

Many Australian farmers and politicians of both major parties have long argued against the farm subsidies in the US and the European Union and of course these should go, but they don't. That is the reality no matter how many conferences of the WTO are devoted to their abolition. This undoubtedly difficult situation is the result of the internal political dynamics of those countries, not of corruption or unethical behaviour. And it certainly cannot be a justification for the unethical behaviour by the AWB in Iraq. The response in Australia to the subsidies has been an odd one. Because free trade is a good thing, certainly in Liberal Party ideology, the American and European farmers are the baddies. I heard the complaints of this nature once from a retired Chairman of the WA Grain Board when traveling inTurkey in 1999. The very knowledgeable gentleman lamented that he had seen many farmers gone under as a result of these subsidies. But why have Australian farmers not received the same protection in order to compete on a more level playing ground? And why must we always hear that measures such as a Government wheat export monopoly is "agrarian socialism"? I is simply common sense. Australia should negotiate for free trade, not just for themselves as competent producers but also for the developing world, but in the meantime can it afford to let their own farmers sink? I think farmers in Australia need all the protection they can get from the Government, from all Governments state, and federal. The bad protection days are long past and we live in a very different world. We would be much better off providing appropriate, matching subsidies than engaging in paying kick-backs to rogue regimes.

Klaas Woldring
Posted by klaas, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:43:07 PM
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Klaas, it could of course be argued that the subsidies that the EU
and US provide, is a form of Govt corruption of free and fair trade.
In fact if any industry is corrupted by Governments worldwide,
it is agriculture, so Aussie farmers have to paddle through that
maze as best they can.

Lets face it, copying the European situation, where farmers are better at farming the taxpayer then farming the land, might solve short term political problems, but does not create an efficient industry.

As a small nation, Australia needs to trade and needs alliances.
You are correct, backing the Bush regime is a problem, but alliances are sometimes formed with the long term in mind, not just during one ignorant prez's term. Its no point for Australia to form alliances with the EU, considering how dismally we are treated by them.

There are answers, more trade with SE Asia as growth continues there.
Turning wheat into ethanol is another one. But they will take time.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 22 February 2006 9:51:50 PM
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To Tony Kevin and Company,

Keep on going for it, mates - but maybe you won’t like us when we tell you we are agrarian socialists, but certainly no commo’s, giving reminder how Stalin banished and slew the Russian Kulaks because he would not stand by the promise from Lenin that if the Kulak social revolutionaries helped the commo’s get power, they could keep their own farms.

It was a social togetherness by the majority that helped the Aussie cockies get their way during the Great Depression, being granted price stabilisation and one control board or single desk. It was also when the Australian Country Party came into strength, having been first formed in Victoria by the cow cockies. It was later that Black Jack McKewan took charge standing up to Menzies - only wish us cockies could have someone like Black Jack right now.

Though our government is worried about today’s wheat trading so suddenly, it is certainly about time. With so much of our wealth coming from far deeper down than a grain crop, and ordinary city people on cloud nine with cheap Chinese clothing, etc, etc, most of our public is not conscious about problems in the bush Happy consumers is, oh, so important. Such things also lower inflation, and it is so interesting that our government gets the credit for it when they shouldn’t.

Talking as West Aussies, we must say that Leon Bradley, Chairman of Barry Court’s PGA, belongs to the same group of smart-arse elitists as the Primary Producer’s Assoc’ who lost the plot during the Great Depression by backing the big buyers like Bunge and Louis Dreyfus, who like some unscrupulous Jew woolbuyers would with poor rural communications have the farmer cockie agreeing to a far lower price over a town phone, than was actually being offered in Chicago, seat of the world grain trade.
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 23 February 2006 7:18:06 PM
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Part Two

It also must be reminded that Barry Court is pushing us WA cockies to join the same old grain trade, where nearly all the world’s big grain dealers like Dreyfus, Bunge and Cargills, belong to nations that are subsiding their graingrowers mainly to gain the rural vote, as George W’ might tell you how wise he was when first elected to promise 80 billion dollars over the next ten years, in rural subsidies mostly for the huge graingrowing Midwest.

As West Aussie kids us bush oldies can remember in Dalwallinu, a big district which had the more wealthy cockies to the south who supported equal to now Barry Court’s PGA, but in the north were the newer cockies. mostly former miners, who supported the red-ragging Cockies Union. And it is so interesting that the Farmer’s Unions won the fight all over Australia, helped somewhat with rifles in the cabs of trucks and under wagon seats, to keep certain smart arse farmers from moving onto the weigh bridges.

Of course it can’t come to that now with our fabulous underground pit-stocks, but it is believed us bushies still need that mental fire, which some call commonsense while the more learned might call it insight which as Socrates would say, can be gained much more by sound reasoning, than through having misguided faith in bad governments.
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 23 February 2006 7:24:36 PM
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Good old Aussie talk lets get fairdinkum on this issue, most would understand goverment just had to know about the lies and the bribes.
While we marched to war with America another war has been about for a long while a trade war.
Aussie weat was to be sold not American so lies rolled with the money.
Another war came and Howard must never be seen to have dirt on his hands so we will only talk of honesty never hear the truth but know it still.
This shamefull goverment has dragged unions and Australian workers to the butcher shop for no good reason, now it leaves our once proud name in world trade on that shop floor.
Pig iron Bob would be no fan of Howards if he lived today.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 24 February 2006 4:51:31 AM
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Wasn't it great to hear that the Iraqi's were still willing to purchase Australian wheat but from others other than the AWB? Hopefully that news has eased some of the fears and stress that our long suffering wheat farmers were feeling.

It was impressive that belatedly Johhny managed to do a complete backflip and not send the AWB chairman on the trade mission to solve the problem that should have been addressed when the Govt was first informed allegedly back in 2001.

The single desk selling system should stay... it is a good system for our farmers.

However in Johnny's statement to the house last week he mentioned that the AWB "own the wheat". Surely the farmers don't sell anything to the AWB without the "Romalpa" clause or the wheat is held in trust. The AWB hasn't sold it yet or is this another letting down of the farmers hidden in the web?

Surely ownership of the wheat isn't transferred in totality to the AWB until the farmer is paid or is it?

I thank the Iraqi Govt on behalf of Aussies for their reasonable approach for our Aussie farmers. Congratulations on your intelligent decision making. I wonder if we would have been so reasonable if the shoe had been on the other foot?

Shouldn't everyone in the chain from the AWB up to the PM be held accountable for this problem? Many traditional Liberal & National voters are quick to bring up Gough and Keating ... and the voters did hold them accountable - they voted Keating out and didn't re-elect Gough! Do they now have the same strength of conviction to hold this Govt accountable or is accountability only applicable to the Labor side?

Is poor Johnny appearing to look a little bit flustered lately?.... Is he asking himself "How can this happen to me... I am Australia's greatest PM"?

The lesson here is a simple one and it applies to both Liberal and Labor equally - never give a Govt a third term... it is a proven method of achieving mediocrity and worse!
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 24 February 2006 2:38:54 PM
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Just to keep people up to date with the AWB the Govt is trying everything it can to bury the story... I mean the Treasurer brings up a controversial issue on Muslims just to distract the media's attention and it worked to some degree.

When listening to politicians I have always found that if they encourage you to look somewhere it is often becasue they are diverting your attention from somewhere else where you should be looking.

Laurie Oakes has an interesting piece here - http://news.ninemsn.com.au/oakes

There was another interesting piece on Nine MSN critical of John Howard which suddenly seems to have disappeared. Amazing!

So please people for the wheat growers of Australia's sake don't let our conservative politicians divert your attention from this most important issue. The diversionary tactic is used by all sides of politics to deflect people's attention when they are in trouble and the conservatives are in trouble.

Our international reputation has been placed at stake, and noone is really taking the proper responsibility.
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 25 February 2006 7:44:53 PM
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Opinionated, I think there have been developments. The guy who testified for instance, that anyone doing business with Iraq was paying something at that time. If you wanted to sell something,
you paid or no business.

Wheatgrowers will survive on the quality of their product and its
competitiveness. Its the Cole enquiry, with all the publicity,
that is doing them damage. Before that, it was simply not an issue.

Its not the role of farmers or the AWB to tell people in other parts of the world how to live or how to do business. The Middle East is already highly sensitive to arrogant Western interference in their part of the world. Now you want us to preach morality to them, whilst the West sends them George Bush, sheesh..

You sound to me to be more concerned with getting rid of the Howard Govt then with the plight of wheatgrowers. Labour will do it when they finally bring some talent into their team, but with Beasley,
Latham and Crean as examples of the best they have, perhaps they had better go back to the drawing board and try again.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 25 February 2006 8:23:19 PM
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Yabby,

Yes I think the Howard Govt has to go.... as I think the Beattie Govt has to go in Qld... PLUS I believe that the strength in our democracy lies in our willingness to vote against those we would normally vote for when they do the wrong thing. Both Howard and Beattie Govts. have succesfully passed the prerequisites of doing the wrong thing.

I am not party affiliated in any way... but I am one who believes that sites like OLO should not only be informative but should also educate people.

If you go back and read what Bushbred said in an earlier post you will realise that at least in WA the wheat growers are most concerned about all these developments.

There will be many wheat growers reading these pages who do not contribute... Likewise many readers of OLO may not be aware of how easily the media and therefore they can be diverted by clever political tactics.

The Aussie Govt could actually turn this into a PLUS by insisting that Bush do the same thing in the USA by opening an enquiry but alas they don't seem brave enough to do that.

The buck stops at the PM's desk on this issue and he should resign and allow the people to assess whether they want him to remain in control by going to the electorate. Changing the Govt would prove that Aussies don't accept paying backhanders as a legitimate way of doing business and that the AWB scandal in no way represents the Australian Way.

As for Labour putting up better people... Keating lost to Howard, because he was perceived as arrogant and mismanaging things. Howard was just in the right place at the right time. Beazley may well become PM for the same reasons as Howard did. It just proves the lack of depth in the quality of our pollies on both sides.
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 25 February 2006 8:50:27 PM
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Opionated, I know what WA wheat growers think lol, I live in the
West and grow wheat amongst other things, I'm just a bit younger then Bushbred.

Of course people are nervous what the Cole Commission and all the politicking that goes along with it, is doing to the industry, fair enough. Farmers also understand the realpolitik. If Australia
only sold wheat to customers whose morals and ethics we approve of,
we would lose two thirds of our customers! If the Govt kept out
of that realpolitik, then in fact they did the right thing and are not just beaurocratic dreamers, as are so many pencil pushers.
Farmers are here to trade and make a living, not to moralise.

The UN story was not just about US companies, but 2000 companies from around the world, as the way the UN ran it was in fact a pathetic disgrace, with director after director resigning from their posts, as they were disgusted too.

It is absolutaly pointless throwing one Govt out of office, unless
you have some better talent to replace them. As Labour simply don't have that right now, perhaps they should put in some effort to get some talent. I say that as a swinging voter, who votes more on issues then for parties
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 25 February 2006 9:15:24 PM
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Yabby,
I hate harping on a point, but sometimes it is necessary.
The Cole inquiry and the possibility of corruption on the part of AWB and negligence by the government in their oversight is NOT about the ethics, morals, or laws of the people to whom we are selling wheat.

It is about the compliance with Australian law, the ethics and morals of the AWB (in an Australian context), and the integrity of supervision under Australian law by the government and its agents.

Now, if you honestly believe that there is some principle that applies in the case of commerce overseas that does not apply to commerce in Australia, then please state it. And, "when in Rome do as the Romans do" doesn't cut the mustard. Again, it justifies taking the families of foreign officials as hostages to secure contracts. Presumably this is and was against the law (as writ, if not practiced) even in Saddam's Iraq. It is certainly against the law in Australia. I suspect it contravenes international law as well.

The pursuit of profit from trade has been regulated for a long time. While the English have a long history of piracy as a means of trade, I'm not sure it is the kind of heritage or precedent we want to claime here and now.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Sunday, 26 February 2006 1:15:21 PM
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Yabby, as another WA Cockie, pleased te meatcha, mate. Bein' younger, and up with it more than me, guess you've heard the latest about our former National Party and Deputy Prime Minister, John Anderson. How he sold AWB shares a year or so ago before he quit the Parliament. Already Kevin Rudd is on to it, but the point is, what do us cockies do about it? As I've mentioned before, wish we had someone back like Black Jack McEwen to straighten things out, had plenty to say to Bob Menzies and all.

But those days are gone, Yabby, as I try to tell my spoilt college-bred grandkids now running our farms. To them Johnny Howard and Iron-Bar Tuckey, are all they say they need. Looks like little Johnny has got all the young ones sorta dumbed down with terrorism and all. Guess its become a case of yours is not to reason why, yours is but to do or die for Johnny H' and Georgie W'. With us old cockies now, however, it is time to teach our grandkids how reason should be really used.

Faith in Australian politics right now unfortunately, has become so much misguided, it is about time we looked back to recover some of our tried and tested country-style Aussie commonsense.

George C, WA - Bushbred
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 26 February 2006 1:54:19 PM
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Bushbred
As an ex-Tassie lad, it is interesting to read your stuff. Firstly because a lot of cockies in Tassie were labor voters for a long time. For them, labor gave them a better deal vis-a-vis the corporations - not to mention defacto subsidies. But also, it represented battlers, which they identified with.

Labor stopped representing the battlers, an Agricultural consultant led the libs and social issues about the way things were suddenly got some more prominence. Pretty quickly, conservatism overtook their worldview, truckies convinced farmers the greenies were bad for the land, and the Tassie Devils started dying - not unconnected events according to some.

Which brings me to common sense. Common sense, unfortunately has never been very common - there is an old and famous quote to this effect by Descartes - "Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it." Just ask Ironbar. Unfortunately, it is actually in short supply, but we each remain convinced we have ample of it - which is the sting in Descartes' tail.

Trade, ultimately, relies on trust. Not a good thing to corrupt. But then, I read your posts and gain hope.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Sunday, 26 February 2006 7:50:27 PM
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Yabby,

The system is doomed now that the genie is out of the bottle regarding kickbacks unless we change our methods.

Here's why

1. Australia can never compete as a small country against countries like the USA and Canada if we all do the kickback shuffle. We don't have the population size to win the highest kickback wins competition.

2. Australian farmers can't afford to discount wheat to counteract any benefits either paid to farmers or kick backed to countries by countries like the USA.

3. We do not have the purchasing power to use our market as a carrot to dangle in trade negotiations. We are small fry.

4. Kickbacks/subsidies paid by other countries will undermine any of our efficiencies in the growing, harvesting and selling of wheat.

So as a country we are better to go the non-kickback route otherwise we lose. You can't complain as a wheat farmer if we take your suggested path with continuing kickbacks and lose anyway.

Furthermore why should all Aussie taxpayers be forced to cover tax deductions for kickbacks? That would be another subsidy and we would all lose at that too.

You are right there were around 2000 breaches but the AWB is allegedly the biggest. We are now out in the open like a sitting duck and as Mr Rudd has said the Aussie Govt. was warned at least 16 times but it seems chose to ignore the warnings. The buck stops there.

Your argument regarding "Wait till Labor improve their candidates" is also flawed. In my opinion no Govt should be voted in for a 3rd term as it offers too much opportunity for corruption and the stacking of boards and committees.

I'm sorry that you will be affected by the AWB crisis but the system you espouse undermines open and honest Govt.

Please tell me - When does the ownership of your wheat pass to the AWB? Does the Romalpa clause apply to wheat supplied to the AWB? This clause states that ownership of the goods does not pass until the supplier(farmer) is paid in full.
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 26 February 2006 8:04:02 PM
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Osdoc, I thought that the point you raised might be self evident, but let me
explain. Taking hostages is not common practise lol, but paying commissions is.
Now Govts make laws, but do not always implement them to the letter.
Prostitution is banned in WA, but Fifi's massage parlour etc advertise in every
paper. Sometimes realpolitik has to apply in implementation of laws. In fact if
you want to stifle an economy, just send your burearocrats out to worry about
every letter, businesses will just go elsewhere.

The question then arises, if commissions are paid, how much scrutiny should both
business and govt pay, to see if its a normal commission or a kickback? Thats a
line in the sand, open to opinion. If the commission is added to the sales
prices, it doesent affect the seller,which is where Opinionated is confused.

Trade with the third world is a totally different ballgame. Look at the claims
of sick sheep, iron in wheat, diseased wheat etc, they were all rubbish, just
part of the system there. But trade with the thrid world we must, wheat markets
are limited.

Trade is often not just about quality and price. Its about relationships,
friendships, longstanding agreements etc.

Opinionated, the system is not doomed lol. It was working fine, the mistake was
the Cole commission. Commissions, fees, are a business expense, so should be
deducatable from tax. The selling price is increased by that amount, after all.
Yup AWB was the biggest, as wheat was the biggest import, valued billions. In %
terms it was reasonable. I have no idea when ownership passes. It goes in the
pool, they pay us when they sell it.

Bushbred, I am north of you, near Narrogin.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 26 February 2006 9:30:56 PM
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Why did I mention the Romalpa clause?

The Romalpa clause states that the legal possession of the goods does not pass until the supplier of the goods is paid in full. It is a standard clause that can assist businesses when a dispute over ownership arises.

If the farmer's contracts with the AWB contain this clause they may be in a somewhat stronger position than if it doesn't.

John Howard stated "the AWB owns the wheat" and this was reported as his original justification for sending the AWB chairman along with the Deputy PM to Iraq. The AWM Chairman is no longer going. As people now know Iraq has stated "it will not deal with the AWB". If the PM is correct and the AWB "do" own the wheat without the Romalpa clause then the farmers may be in a sticky legal position.

Remember it was John Howard who suggested the "AWB owned the wheat" and the Iraqi Govt who said "they will not deal with the AWB". John Howard is from the legal profession so should have realised the importance of the statement he made on ownership.

I hope none of this comes about but if the AWB needs the wheat to survive and the farmers need the wheat to be sold for them to survive, a transfer of the wheat from the AWB to another entity might just be a bigger problem than people realise.

"Forewarned is forearmed"

Gee Yabby, so now it is the Cole commissions fault that the truth of alleged kickbacks is outing. I wasn't suggesting the single desk system is dead... it will survive, it is the kickback system that is dead. If I were you I would be checking when ownership is transferred to the AWB. I went to the AWB website but the links regarding their terms didn't work for me.
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 26 February 2006 10:43:14 PM
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Opinionated, the real problem and noise is coming from people obsessed with bringing down the Govt, as they have failed using the election process, so now they are grasping at this particular straw.

The real losers will be the farmers, as they will lose some markets as their marketers will be negotiating with one hand tied behind their backs. So that wheat will have to be sold at a lower price then would have been possible.

The real winners will be the Americans, who desparately want market share in Iraq, would like to destroy our single desk and will now be able to do deals around the place and pay commissions, which our boys won't be able to do.

So your caring about the wheat industry is IMHO rather shallow,
your obsession with getting rid of Howard, a bit too obsessive.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 February 2006 2:25:30 PM
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AWB Crisis:
After reading some of the Posts, it appears there's a marked division on the justification for schadenfreude, deception and corruption chronicled by the AWB. Fully supported by DFAT, circa 1996, and continuing to this day by National Party chief Mark Vale & Co, as they negotiate to salvage Iraqi wheat sales.

The virulent apologist have made it clear because everybody is tainted in the excreta of shoddy governance - we forsake morals, ethics, integrity, reputation, and transparancy by colluding, in fact taking a leading role in Aust Biggest Corporate Fraud, as highlighted by the Cole Inquiry.

DFAT have in 3 years and $600M, failed diplomatically and otherwise to secure AWB's position in Iraq's wheat market, despite spending $500M ( Australian Newspaper )inviting over 100 of their Consular and Wheat Officials to Canberra ( 5 star-carte-blanche )presumably to sight-see, appraise the National Icon ??

Next, we magnanimously extended a Credit facility $350M to guarantee AWB's share of the lucrative market ( default clause ) Fed's then cancel a $5M debt owing, to 'imprimatur' - seal the shonky deal ?

Such largesse defies the imagination of every decent Ozzie, specially the suffering Pensioners, single parents, unmarried Mums, Indegenous families - some who barely survive on 'meals-on-wheels', St Vinney's, numerous charities to eke out a 'only just, sustainable living' ??

Ever since the 'spruiker from Bennelong' tightened the Security threshold with draconian legislature, we see more undercover Govt Agencies acting as 'watch dogs' to spy on citizens. Pity these highly paid bureaucrats overlooked the present scandal ? Begs the question 'who's watching the watch dogs ' ??

With the Institute of Criminology presiding over International camparisons of levels of corruption among Public Officials and Politicians, Aust rated 8 whereas Iceland and NZ top the list.

Transparancy International (Aust) dedicated to monitoring Govt accountability in 2001 established the OECD Convention.Combating Bribery of Foreign Officials in International Business and Criminal liability - imposing a $330,000 fine for offenders. To date no Company or individual have been charged under sect 70.2 of Commonwealth Criminal Code ?

Aust Integrity Systems -

continued ..
Posted by dalma, Monday, 27 February 2006 4:36:35 PM
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The National Competition Council, Griffith U's Key Centre for Law, Justice and Governance, ensures we uphold Democratic Institutions on Law Reform etc.All this is underpinned, mind you by AFP, Ministry of Justice/customs, Universities,and appropriate Regulators. Et tu ??

The prevalence of corruption in many leading Nations does not mean Aust can join the Party and drop standards. There NEVER was a level playing field should come as no surprise. It should no longer be seen as Business as usual. It's illegal, and what's more a strong stance against corruption, bribery, money laundering, illegal gambling, off shore tax haven's, corporate malfeasance, etc is conducive to a Healthy Family oriented enviornment.

The collateral fall out from the Inquiry will have repercussions that will resonate for years. The damage to Our reputation as a responsible, honest and reliable Trading Nation is in tatters. The HK Standard, Phuket Gazette, Singapore Strait's Times, Kuala Lumpur's Business Times etc have been scathing in their criticism of events. Our character and very fabric has been jeopardised and put on the line. Foreign Investments could significantly diminish. The corrosive effect is likely to impinge on Tourism, Trade and Business (development) Enterprise. It may distort Economic decision making, fuel inflation and source short term timely intervention by the Reserve Bank. Clearly the Government has broken faith with the electorate. We deserve better. This serves as a 'wake up' call.

Cheers
Posted by dalma, Monday, 27 February 2006 4:58:54 PM
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Fantastic news that Iraq has agreed to continue to take Aussie wheat.... Yabby I wonder if there are any kickbacks to do this deal? lol

The only impediment now in the process is "if the AWB owns the wheat" as the PM stated. I hope the AWB will transfer the wheat to the new selling entity asap.

Who owns the wheat handling equipment and infrastructure and how are we going to work that out without increasing costs to farmers?

To allay any fears for farmers, (they have been through enough), it would be nice if the AWB would make a statement giving full co-operation and guaranteeing the change of the ownership of the wheat to be sold to Iraq.

Like in all things whilst the biggest hurdle has been overcome it's the little hurdles that need to be addressed quickly to make the transition as seamless as possible.

Also I congratulate the new Iraqi Government for taking the correct decision.

Yabster ... I have wheat farmers in my family so your honest opinion OOps is wrong. Also I have stated that the Howard Govt should resign and go to the people so you are not psychic either. I have also stated that it is the role of the opposition to question the Govt and that the Libs in opposition would be right to do the same thing.... so I have been up front there also.

Do you really expect this problem just go back in the little box you seem to want it to? I have tried to point out obstacles the farmers may face so they can be in the best position to protect themselves.

You say you are not politically aligned... Are you really unaligned or a Lib/National voter? lol Why didn’t you answer bushbred's question to you about Ex Deputy PM Anderson's shares in AWB? Apparently he has said words to the effect "that he was going to sell when they got to $5 anyway… ask his wife."

Will the Cole Enquiry follow his instruction and actually "ask his wife"? lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 27 February 2006 8:12:09 PM
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Opinionated, I find it quite amusing that you are doing lots of worrying about the wheat industry, when you don't understand the issues :)

Any tender for Iraqi wheat is now months away, so all the things that you seem to be losing sleep over, are simply not issues.

Your wheat growing relations are out of touch too. A poll published in Farm Weekly last week, involving 1000 wheatgrowers, showed that 83% think that kickbacks are normal in international trade. 70% think that AWB have been unduly victimised compared with other international companies.

I also find it rather amusing that its Chalabi, who IIRC was the person who gave the US the dud info about WMD, who is commenting as deputy Iraqi PM about Aussie wheat morality :)

Rest assured, farmers will survive, even if all this costs them huge money. If worse comes to the worst, we in WA will simply back CBH and do our own thing here, we own it and then the ES can go and do their thing over there. If it was up to me, we would have seceded from the East long ago...
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 27 February 2006 10:31:53 PM
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Yabby, I am glad that you are amused ... I understand the issues ... and guess what the people against kickbacks have been proven right! Rather than giggling read your AWB contract so you know when the title of your wheat passes from you, it is in your interest to know.

So now you want to secede?.. Stop typing and go oil the header mate .... Do you own your property outright Yabster?... If you do then sucede. If you have debt "don't" because the banks could forclose on Yabbiesville - they may assess your new nation as too high a risk. At least you'd have a single desk selling system. The downside is you'd have to pay departure tax and entry tax each time you visited my country Australia...rofl

Gee you must be psychic if you know what my wheat relatives think?.... Can you give me next weeks lotto numbers then? lol

With Stats it is the way the question is worded that is most important. Let's analyze the stats. The 83% who think that kickbacks are normal may be correct... It changes nothing! With the AWB and maybe 2200 other companies it is alleged they may have been normal.

The 70% would be right if they had said the AWB were being investigated unlike the other companies. How do you victimise a company which allegedly may have broken the law? Normally you investigate them... OOps that's what's happening!

Actually you are wrong about the tender being months away... the PM is still hopeful that we can still have a go at the one just gone. Can't remember his exact words... but he seemed to imply that he hadn't given up hope.

I don't lose any sleep over the AWB Yabby... I just want it finalised for the farmer's sakes. It looks like it will continue to be a teeth pulling exercise.

Of course farmers will survive in Oz... most farmers are determined, hard working folk. I have absolute faith in them.

So will Yabbiesville pay kickbacks? What a cack...lol
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 27 February 2006 11:42:08 PM
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Yabby
I am going to hark back a few posts - the 24 hr limit and business got me. Funny about kidnapping and hostages - they may not be common here, they may not constitute the main business practice in the third world, but very, very common they are: look at middle east, South American and Asian news services occasionally.

I like your example of prostitution. A long history of corruption of police forces and public officials and increasing organisation of crime seems to be associated with that trade. The history shows that it started off a bit like your version of international trade: a bribe here and there, everyone does it, turn a blind eye. Like prostitution, we could just legalise bribes etc and expect the criminality to go elsewhere (somehow this doesn't seem to work in this case, but it is in line with your argument).

However, it is worth noting that the history behind the prohibition on bribes includes a request by third world countries for the first world to prohibit bribes. Apparently, they want to clean up their own backyard, but recognise that big international and multinational firms can afford to bribe officials anywhere. That makes ethics and legal compliance on the part of the international traders all the more important. In the end, ask yourself what the long term gain for wheat farmers is from bribery.

Oh, and the history of prostitution show that it is the girls that get the worst end of the deal. I'd have thought the analogy put wheat farmers in the place of the girls: getting done over in every possible sense, but still being paid for it (occasionally).

Your analogy though, so I guess you knew that when you posted it.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 9:27:21 AM
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Opinionated, you are clearly a young whippersnapper or you would be aware that there was once an active secession movement in WA. That does not mean that West Australians are not aware, that us 10% of the population produce a third of Australia's exports! If WA was to secede, your Eastern States peso would be dirt cheap and we could do away with all you pencil pushers over there :)

Odsoc, my prostitution point was just one example of the difference between what is written in law and sensible implementation of that law. That applies to every law. In theory you could be prosecuted nearly every day, for overstepping the speed limit by 1km/h, in practise that would be unreasonable, so it isn't done.

So my point remains this: If AWB paid kickbacks and broke some law, legally they made a mistake, but IMHO morally they were quite correct in doing what they did. Nelson Mandella broke the law many times, but long term he was proven morally correct in his claims.

In a corrupted world wheat market, corrupted by EU and US Govts,
if AWB took a can- do approach and sold wheat to the best advantage of its growers, then I commend them for it. The whole UN boycott on Iraq was at best a total fiasco from the start. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died because of it, Saddam was not affected at all. Thousands of companies who traded with Iraq did exactly what AWB did, so to now make big dramatic claims, mainly by people who want to bring down the Govt, has achieved absolutaly nothing so far except to damage AWBs potential to market wheat in that corrupted world market
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 28 February 2006 3:14:38 PM
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Yabby
It seems pointless arguing ethics and morals with someone who cannot see the difference between breaking an immoral law (the Mandela case) and those who break the law to morally corrupt others (the AWB case). But one last try.

Above, you made the point that trade is about relationships. Relationships can be based on corruption, but such relationships are not reliable. Since the times of the fourteenth century Florentine merchants, it has been assumed that commercial relationships are best based on trust - and trust that an offered bribe will be accepted is corruption, not trust.

It is not about a political agenda, it is about ethical dealing as a basis for international commerce, whether with the first, second, or third world. And if you truly don't recognise the difference, then I am very glad not to be doing business with you.

odsoc
Posted by odsoc, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 12:30:21 AM
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Yes Yabby we all remember when the West Aussies wanted to secede... How can we forget those moments of madness. Old Lang and his mates. We also remember Joh for PM too... another moment of madness.

Now do you remember the Aussie Govt saying they knew nothing about the alleged kickbacks... Could they be fibbing?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=85011

Is it legal to pay an AWM chairman out of Australia's Foreign Aid Budget? Aren't foreign aid budgets for foreign aid?

For more info see : http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/flugge-received-680000-from-foreign-aid-funds/2006/02/16/1140064205122.html

We can only wait now to see who else puts their hand up for knowing what is being revealed at the Cole enquiry. Who authorised the alleged payments from these "foreign aid" accounts and did the PM, any Ministers or any of his staff know? Is this inpropriety?

Why do people have such a low regard for politicians? I just can't fathom it out.
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 12:35:50 AM
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Odsoc, but you miss the whole moral argument here! How moral is it for EU and US Govts to try and send Aussie wheat farmers broke and win market share, by using their treasuries to do it? Don't you think that those who are affected by such immoral behaviour have a right to fight for justice?

Do you think we should just turn the other cheeck and quietly slither away and die? Read your evolutionary psychology. Turning the other cheeck is a dismal failure. Tit for tat is far more effective. The next question is who was actually bribed here?
Iraq was given back money that was Iraq's in the first place.

When I still owned my export company, we were scrupulously honest.
That won us alot of business. But if competitors tried to use dirty tricks, we gave it back twice as hard and they didn't do it again.

Fortunatetly the Aussie wheat industry is hanging on and its starting to dawn on the EU and US that their subsidies are leading them nowhere, so they might rethink things in the future.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 8:48:24 AM
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Yabby,

Whilst I can sympathise with your position and agree that any country that subsidises produce or pays kickbacks are undermining Australian farmers... but you can't have it both ways.

As I have said we are the small fish in the big pond. WE are the ones that have been caught out. Following your thinking you should be really dirty on Howard for creating the Cole enquiry and yet Howard reluctantly did the right thing.

If his Govt was informed about the alleged kickbacks and Downer has now admiited he would have read the memos http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=85011 then I'm afraid they have let down the farmers worse than anyone.

ODSOC is correct in his outling of the true morality that should take place here. Two wrongs don't make a right!

By the Govt Departments only slowly releasing information in the Cole enquiry they are only dragging the inevitable out. This is a tactic that might work if it was an internal Aussie matter (although to me it is still wrong) but the Yanks, EU & Canadians are still waiting and watching.

John Howard needs to go on the attack and insist that the countries the other 2200 companies belong to be investigated by a similar enquiry as Cole's. He won't do that because he has aligned himself too closely to Georgy Boy. Poor Johnny has got himself into an unwinnable situation... But he only suffers political fallout... The farmers are the ones who will bare the brunt of his failure to act when his Govt was first warned of the alleged kickbacks.

We are entering a new era for Aussie trade and Howard should get off the back foot and go on the attack. Is his reputation in his mind more important than our Wheat farmers and the Aussie economy?

Lastly how can a Govt allegedly pay Mr Flugge out of the Overseas Aid Fund? If the Govt can do this what other "slush funds" are they using and for what?

This is serious stuff - http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/flugge-received-680000-from-foreign-aid-funds/2006/02/16/1140064205122.html
Posted by Opinionated2, Wednesday, 1 March 2006 12:06:07 PM
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Well I figure most people now accept that doing the kickback shuffle is the worst scenario for the future of the wheat trade but some other articles I have found should be read. Farmers had better beware!

What did Mr Vaile know?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18319074%255E2702,00.html

Michelle Gratton wrote this article regarding the single desk process for selling wheat. Could this be true? Is the single desk system under threat?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/michelle-grattan/tough-business-at-hand/2006/02/18/1140151850845.html

Can this happen in Australia?

http://afr.com/articles/2006/03/02/1141191780929.html

I wonder what else will come out of the woodwork?
Posted by Opinionated2, Thursday, 2 March 2006 10:17:39 PM
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What was that Mr Downer? Was that a "CC" to your cabinet members?
Posted by Suebdootwo, Thursday, 2 March 2006 11:19:14 PM
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Well finally the Aussie Wheat farmer's may have had a small win despite the saga of the AWM. See Yabby I told you there was still a chance that we might get something. The PM was right to be optimistic (perhaps he knew something and wasn't telling, is this one of his traits?), and, although it is only a small part of the bigger order it does at least prove that the Iraq Govt. is true to it's word.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18334495-2,00.html

I wonder how we will process the order if the AWM owns the infrastructure? Has the Govt. some contingency plan?

But a problem may be looming in several areas for the Govt. It has been alleged that many Govt officials saw the warnings including Howard. How could a PM not respond to these warnings in some way, he is an astute man, and, would realise the consequences if the allegations were proven true? If staff weren't passing on these memos to the PM, or were ordered not to pass these onto the PM, and the AWM are proven to have been acting illegally does that make people accessories if a crime was committed? What other information is held back from the PM and is this a good system?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18332011%255E601,00.html

It looks like the teeth pulling exercise will continue,
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 3 March 2006 11:49:47 AM
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Opinionated, I hope that you noticed that 2200 companies from 65 countries were involved in the Saddam UN saga. 64 countries have done very little about it, I guess they understand realpolitik.

I have always been of the opinion that Aussies are somewhat naive, when it comes to matters of international affairs. It seems I am
right once again lol.

It seems that you are still hoping to get your political rocks off, over this story. 10 years of John Howard still does not send the message to you that labour need to get their proverbial fingers out and come up with better policies and better candidates, if they want to get anywhere.

There is some good talent in labour ranks. Look at Alan Carpenter, the new WA premier. He's an intelligent, common sense fellow, so he will do well. Federally of course things are hopeless. Why don't they give Gillard a go for instance? Kim would make a great Santa
at the local shopping centre at Christmas, but I think that you are grasping at straws, if you think he is going to swing public opinion towards labour.

Regarding wheat, Australia has about 17 million tonnes to sell this
year, so the Iraq market is not the end all or be all, but its become a political issue. You are clearly not aware that farmers own the infrastructure to export wheat, in terms of organisations like CBH etc.

What farmers need to do is to get a few messages through to the EU and US. If they as Govts do not act morally in their behaviour, they should not be amazed if Aussie farmers use guerrilla tactics to survive and point that out. There is a huge moral issue at stake here, turning the other cheek is a dismal failure in the real world,
so we as farmers should not adopt it.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 March 2006 9:49:48 PM
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Yabster,

Read my previous posts you now say what I've been saying. John Howard should start pressuring the other's to have similar enquiries. But he probably won't ... he is too close to the USA. He knows that some of those companies may be close to the USA administration.

Thankyou for informing me that the infrastructure is owned by the farmers. This Govt. has a track record for selling the infrastructure ie Telstra so I was concerned that they may have transferred ownership to the AWB when it became a public company. See that is I you learn here - I ask questions. Now I am relying on you to be correct on this infrastructure question...lol

I am not a Labor voter Yabster so there is no need to lecture me on them. I am totally unaligned remember that was one of the questions you failed to answer that I asked of you way back. You must try to remember to answer my questions...lol

Kevin Rudd is doing what oppositions should do and with todays request from Mr Cole for an extension of the enquiry I guess one day we will know all the dirt on what happened. Have we ever had a Govt in Oz that has had so many of it's cabinet allegedly maybe having misled parliament?

See here : http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18335069-2,00.html

You are correct the 17,000,000 tonnes isn't all going to go to Iraq... but our reputation in the world has suffered through this fiasco. Say you were a buyer of wheat and you knew Australia was in a corner based on their reputation. How would you negotiate? I know what I would do...

So which ever way you cut it the Govt. has let farmer's down badly by not investigating the allegations when they first were made. Remember the Keystone Cops Yabby.... Ha! How many AWB shares do you own Yabby?

I predicted that Canada had positioned itself well to get more sales to Muslim countries way back? Was I right?

I'd also like to have input from other farmers on this thread... it broadens my knowledge.
Posted by Opinionated2, Friday, 3 March 2006 11:57:48 PM
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Opinionated, you clearly miss the point once again, as usual :)

Clearly 64 countries out of 65, don't give a hoot about this story,
as the evidence shows. So much for claims of damaging Australia's reputation.

Canada has always sold some grain to the Middle East, as has Australia. Nothing new is happening there either.

If this story is as I see it, then everyone in Aus did what realpolitik suggested they should do, they moved Australian wheat in a corrupted market.

Opinionated, its time to open your eyes and see the real global situation. Right now Russia has said that the West has to accept the fact that Iran will have nuclear weapons in 5 years. Israel, the US and EU have said over their dead bodies. Anything could happen.
Sanctions against Iran would soon see oil at 100$. The whole Middle East could inflame. The world has far bigger problems then some
enquiry in Aus.

In fact, considering the fact that one can make about 400L of ethanol out of a tonne of wheat, its best value might yet be to
power peoples cars, rather then export it at all!
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 4 March 2006 9:37:36 PM
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Yabby,

Everyone seems to have gotten the point but you. All the other "she'll be right mate" "hang the corruption" warriors have already sat down and shutup.

This article is well worth a read as it seems to put the "I knew nothing" concept into context. Not that I agree with Rudd on everything but it does as he puts it "beggar belief"

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18339010%255E7583,00.html

Now in the following article it begs the next few questions that haven't been asked? If as Mr Downer says the cash has been "fully acquitted" how was it fully acquitted? Did the Iraqis give official receipts? Has the auditor general had a look at these accounts? What auditing processes were used to assure taxpayers that the moneys were properly spent?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18331909%255E601,00.html

And why is the PM not bothered that no-one told him of the cables? Is he saying something that may effect the National interest isn't that important? Is he asleep at the wheel and what else will he miss in the future if he can't pick up on the obvious?

We're not in kindergarden now Yabby ... weeze in the big world. I know Canada has always sold wheat in the world market... it's just that their non-aligned strategy is a clever political and economical move... our Govts policy wasn't!

Some of us Yabby ... actually expect Australia to have some standards... and expect pollies to abide by those standards.

I would love ethanol to be the solution and I hope that the Wheat growers can get a slice of the action in ethonol production. Get it going if you are so confident Yabby... it will suit me.
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 4 March 2006 10:23:31 PM
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Oh Oh .... Looks like the preverbial is about to hit the fan with this article.... based on evidence before the AWB enquiry.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18364955-37435,00.html

Oh and this one for backup

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18364641%255E29277,00.html

Wow, What are the rules on Prime Ministers & Ministers allegedly misleading the parliament?

If they can't find the smoking gun ... is this the smoking Cannon?

Now I will never be able to believe them when they say "Trust us we're politicians"!
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 6 March 2006 4:31:58 PM
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Hey Opinionated,

Did you know that a few of us cockies got together to form Graincol in the early 1970s owing to a big drop in the price of wheat and the resultant allocation of grain quotas.

In fact, many cockies sons and cockies themselves got good jobs with Alcoa, some getting jobs up north in the early iron ore pits. Looking at present low wheat prices, some cockie's sons up our way are even thinking about it now, leaving the womenfolk and kids to just run stock. If things get worse, older blokes might even have to move back to the farms from retirement, letting the young ones make money where best they can.

It is so interesting now to look back as now, that we could envisage a great future for agriculture when underground fuel really ran out. Many of us in Dalwallinu, rang around and raised quite a few thousand pounds and helped to even get Graincol producing. But as usual our government was more impressed by the words of Big Biz, which of course knew that if Graincol did prove a goer, the oil companies might lose a few quid over it.

But as you've hinted, matey, though us oldies will be be dead and gone, there will come a time. when all surplus agricultural produce will be turned into either bio-diesel or ethanol. In fact, did you know that when the Grmans took France in late 1940, they ran their planes and tanks mostly on potato juice, as the saying went.

George C, WA - Bushbred
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 12:01:19 AM
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Hi Bushbred,

I hadn't heard the story about the potato juice running the German planes but it proves much can be done if you have the need and the expertise to do it. I used to know a guy who built steam driven cars. They were starting to really get somewhere when he was allegedly bought out by an oil company... No more steam cars to be seen after that.

So I hope you guys can come up with the right ethenol solutions. Perhaps if we got it right farmers could have more money to rehabilitate some of their properties to add value to them also.

I hope a few of the cockies are keeping an eye on this AWB saga as once again the cockies are the meat in the sandwich.

Did you see this article : http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200603/s1585253.htm

It is quite amazing after todays revelations at the Cole Enquiry

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18364641%255E29277,00.html

and

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,18370700%255E1702,00.html

I wonder what tomorrow will bring?

The fact that Mr Cole had to ask for an extension is also worrying because the longer this drags out the worst the situation will be for all concerned.

Non GM Farmer brought up an interesting question in this thread also
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4224

I remember farm aid when many of the city folk got stuck in to assist the farmers... We might all have to chip in again in the future to help with the problems this mess may cause.

Some of us city slickers are hoping that once this is finalised the bushies can get back to basics and do what they do best. Farming the driest continent in the world.
Posted by Opinionated2, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 2:03:37 AM
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It seems our politicians earn so much they are able to play to old stockmarket and share game in their spare time.

Shares also assist in ones ability to legally make your money invisible from the tax man and lower tax liabiltiies.

Do we pay or politicians too much and would this assist them with the temptations that often embroil them in controversy in the tit for tat release of their income tax returns and their lack of ability to account to authorities who require this information?
Posted by Suebdootwo, Monday, 13 March 2006 12:21:32 AM
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Why are parliamentarians so forgetful on following the rules on divulging their interests when they have to? Why also does the PM always seem to defend his men when they allegedly don't follow rules?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18438221-29277,00.html

One side effect of the AWB enquiry being lengthened is that it has afforded the ALP the opportunity to have a few very public internal fights - seemingly diverting them from the job at hand again.

It's not like the ALP to lose the plot at key times is it? OOps yes it is.

The craziest thing seen to date was Mr Rudd standing in front of a header, in a wheat field, talking to farmers and the media questioning him on leadership tensions. At least he was trying to do his job as opposition spokesman on the AWB.

So we seem to have

Ministers and parliamentarians who allegedly don't appear to follow the rules and the rules have no penalties attached to them.

A PM who can see nothing wrong with anything on his side of politics even when parliamentary rules allegedly aren't being adhered to. Once again leading by example.

And the Labor party self imploding.

Yep! That will all sure help the wheat farmers
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 13 March 2006 1:48:48 PM
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Memories are made of...of...oh I forget.
I dont know about spending a lot of money on researching Alzheimer's disease when this country seems to be suffering a pandemic of Craft (Can't remember a flaming thing) disease.
Highly paid CEO's, politicians and public servants appear to be stricken with the disease lately, the recent AWB enquiry being the latest forum displaying how widespread it is entrenched in the 'top end of town'.
I was not told, I was not there, No one told me, Not as I can recall,
It's not my job to know that, I can't recall exactly, I don't remember, I'm sure I was not there when it may have been discussed, and on and on it goes.
Maybe it says more about what these clowns think about the people who keep them in their jobs.
It would appear that we have another serious problem in this country, no pens or paper to take into important meetings thereby preventing any notes being taken.
I'm sure, if I recall correctly, public servants 'best practice procedures' insisted on notes being taken in vast quantities of all preceedings, important or not.
Then again I might have developed a touch of Craft myself lately.
What a delightfully deceitful new world we live in, dur.
Posted by dur, Tuesday, 11 April 2006 12:11:14 PM
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In life, like selling wheat, sometimes we have to bend some rules. So we sit on a few million more tonnes of wheat we can't sell because someone asks for a few dollars in a suitcase to seal the deal. The world price drops. We stick to our guns. The world price keeps dropping. Next year a few more million tonnes we can't get rid of. The Americans fill the gap. A few thousand farmers walk of the land. The American spy satelites not only take pics of world hot spots. They take pics of our temporary grain storage bunkers growing and growing and even they get concerned (they used to send us the pics). That gets out and the world price crashes. They want to burn us to get more market share, but burning us while trying to hold the world price up there. Or we all burn. Throw your hat in the air because this is more complex than a few people around here think.
Posted by merv, Thursday, 14 September 2006 10:40:09 AM
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