The denial of a property right that is inherent in the notion of Terra nullius can only work if it is employed with a reversal of the burden of proof. So we have people who have been here for 50,000 years or more but who are expected to show proof of their continuous attachment to the land. And they must do so to people who were clearly not here before 1988.

This is William the Bastard's trap that has endured for almost a millenium. And the extended focus on the restoration of specific lands to particular individuals continues to play into this trap for most of the southern blackfellas.

Perseus, yes, the Yorta Yorta case demonstrates your point exactly.

The Native Title Act’s preamble says, “the people of Australia intend to ensure that Aboriginal people receive the full recognition and status within the Australian nation to which history, their prior rights and interests, and their rich and diverse culture, fully entitle them to aspire”.

Yeah sure.

In nearly every culture, “history” has two meanings: events as they happened in the past and the reconstructed version of these events in later times.

In many ways Connor, Windshuttle, Howard are not so much interested in wars of history but in positioning themselves as hero’s of the present and part of how history will be recounted in the future. They will be remembered.

Terra Nullius is not just a land law doctrine but also a means by which historical disremembering on a national scale was enable. In the post Mabo determination it was a shock for many white Australians to learn that this country was inhabited by ‘Other’ peoples prior to ‘peaceful settlement’. For those knew it was as if a burden had revisited them in the still of the night.

I recall being asked at school ‘which country did you come from”? by white children who were oblivious to my and their joint history. Back then Aborigines were [and continue] to be spatially organised in memory to inhabit the outback, a curiosity, on tea-towels, referenced in Harry Butler documentaries and in the last chapter of Australian history books [or not mentioned at all].

While white Australians could always tell immigrants to go back to where they came from, but were dumbstruck when confronted with my mob. But it seems Connor et al have discovered a cue to this national psycho-social 'Terra'. The hope is that white Australians will triumphantly return to the halcyon days of white armband ethno-nationalism.

What is on trial in Native title claims is not just memory and continuation of custom and tradition, but memory of how cultural continuity was impaired by white incursion. Who speaks for these people, policies and practice? Nullius!

See this cartoon.
http://home.ca.inter.net/~dmonet/cartoon/archive/e02.gif

Ranier....

One thing you may be absolutely certain. 'Self Determination' would never be other than 'under the umbrella' of the current power structure of this country. Why ? simple, -hell will freeze over before we allow some firebrand like Micheal Mansell to cozy up with Libya's Gadaffi, and be white-anted from within!

Yorta2 (I disagree with the court decision)

They demanded that Aboriginal people be given full citizenship rights, including the right to land, self determination and to retain their own unique cultural identity. Social justice and equity were a major part of their policy objectives and the issue of land rights and compensation were at the forefront of their struggle (Horner, 1974:75-80)..

Sure..why not ! Next issue please......

"Compensation"....should be 'Indigenous'. i.e. in terms of what is 'valued' by them, not by us. Money is out of the question.
A major aspect of the claim was for 'food resources lost' by Paddle Steamers scaring them away. Ok.. lets restrict them to other areas !

"Land Rights"

Some choices.

1/Those who currently occupy Yorta Yorta traditional land can open their fences to Indigenous people for free access. Would this help ?

2/ Government can 'buy' property from owners and give it to the Yorta Yorta ! (no problem with that) Condition being, the Yorta2 will use it 'traditionally' not commercially and canNOT "sell" it.

LONG TERM. If the Yorta Yorta wish to have their 'culture,heritage, and land' back.. do they also want the 'white' trappings ? Then.. will they want 'self government' and as population increases..will they want MORE land ? and then MORE ? and then will they want to have recognition as a 'state or Indigenous Nation ' ? Will they have a 'Senate' so all tribes can have equal representation? and so it goes on

IMPORTANT. Anything of this nature is prone to 'politicization'. The most obvious sign of it is in the area of MONEY, access to it and control over it. These issues should be limited to compensating in real terms the things actually lost, and IN TERMS OF INDIGENOUS culture. Not Western.

David

Why is there a condition they have to use the land in the traditional way? We never have and ruined it in the process.

It is only important they have that choice. No reason to me aborigines have to stay stuck in a time capsule. Their choice.

I think from my illegal perspective that they should just stand up and say "btw, we own Cape York, Palm Island or wherever and if you disagree fight us for it. I doubt there would be much resistance. Imagine the horror worldwide if Australia engaged in a civil war over land they don't place much value on? Even if said land is paradise? And with aborigines? Do they really know how much power they have?

The only reason stopping them is welfare and we should not stop that but suggest that with land ownership comes assets and assets provide money and money means you may not qualify. Ooops they have been weaned off welfare. That is bad? Don't think so.

The only drama is to get rid of cattle, and that causes so much destruction to the land maybe a good thing.

If they want to take over land that has been improved or mined then they have to get a royalty or pay them out.

Still cannot see how it would be a major problem unless they want to take over Sydney then I would have to say "too late"! But before it is too late get your hands on where you still are the major population!

And they will probably get more mainstream support than they realise, people just want an end to all this victim business, whoever it is. Everyone respects the aboriginal and I have no doubt for their basic human rights as well.

Dear Verdant
Acknowledge all your points.. well said.

Please read this: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aar/yorta.htm

One thing I find curious about the article above and the claim of native title, is that they seek a ‘legal basis’ in the constitution. Do they realize that in so doing they are defacto recognizing the very power structure which they claim to resent ?.

I have another reason for saying ‘use it in a traditional way’ and to compensate them in the ‘traditional’ way. Simply because they are crying out about ‘lost culture and traditions’ and to me, the simplest way for them to regain them is to USE them in any dealings. This also reduces the possibility (no..the CERTAINTY) of politicization. If there is no ‘money’ involved, but instead, other more culturally appropriate measures.. the greedy hangers on in the “Indigenous industry” will quickly lose interest I’d hope.

The issue at the heart of aboriginal social problems are loss of dignity. They can recover this in one of 2 ways.

1/ Recapture their traditional life as much as possible.
2/ Discover a new foundation for their lives, such as spiritual conversion.

I much prefer the 2nd.

My wifes tribal culture in Borneo was pretty much the same as the worst excesses in Aboriginal society here now. They were drunk more days of the year than sober, disease was rife, population dying out, starvation, malnourishment, so much of their rice crop was used to make Arak (Alchoholic Rice Wine) they always experienced starvation prior to the new crop being ready for harvest.
But, to put it bluntly, and boldly they found Christ. (they went and ASKED the missionaries to come to them) Today they are a renewed and transformed progressive people.

Please read this link to find out about them ( I know personally many of those named in this story and some are relatives by marraige including the late Dr Judson Sakai, and the late Kalip Besar (both killed in helicopter crashes) Kalip lived across the grass Airstrip from me.

http://allmalaysia.info/news/story.asp?file=/2005/7/25/state/11314576&sec=mi_sarawa

Boaz-David

Who is Gadaffi?

Yorta-Yorta I'm not familiar. But if it is as you say- then i'd ask- SURE WHY NOT, we can afford it? and I'd yell it... well... until you listened louder.

So 600,000 people are going to have a seafood picnic, create a modern middin (in a day) and dance around like warriors on Yorta Yorta land and so destroy it's agricultural value...Boaz-David I'm not often sarcastic but this seemed just so funny an image to me. Sorry mate.

But seriously, I do understand your concerns with regard to the financial and sovernity issues. I'd suggest they are not as much an overriding concern as you suggest. I'm sure such issues should be discussed and concerns alleviated with agreed compromises. That's only fair and such occurs in the daily lives of us all.

Yep I agree with you, it is best to keep the politicians out of this discussion.
But David the Indigenous in this country have a spirituality that has been in existance far longer than that of the Christians. Why is Christian Spirituality superior to Indigenous Spirituality?
Would Indigenous people need to abandon their traditional Spirituality to embrace the European concept of spirituality?

Verdant

There are many other things stopping them...peacefulness is one.

You are speaking a great deal of 'truth'.

Regards to you both