Andrew

In your post on Saturday 4 February you wrote: “I don't understand why people don't see population as an issue without borders, the same as climate change. We can continue to help (more) with other countries to contain their population - at the same time as moving towards stabilising ours. I don't see why one has to come before the other”.

The reason why Australia has to stabilise its own population first is that poor nations are suspicious of any program to reduce their fertility while rich nations continue to grow their populations full speed ahead. Population is indeed an issue without borders, and it’s for that reason that Australia must do more than vaguely “move towards” stabilisation, but make it a top priority. Australia should lead by example, showing the benefits of a stable population. Our population cannot keep growing forever, and the time for it to stop growing is not at the end of the century, but now.

Would be interested to know if you've had time to listen to the video by Al Bartlett, at http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/lectures/461, and if so what you think of the points he makes?

Andrew,

I'm wondering why you're supporting a population in Australia of 30 million, when the Academy of Sciences said that 23 million was the most politically achievable lowest point at which we can stabilise?

With a net immigration of 50,000 (not 110,000 which the Howard government is bringing in) and the current fertility rate, I think I remember reading that we could stabilise at 23 million by 2030 (would need to check these figures to be sure).

Is it because of a mistaken left-wing idea that absorbing an extra 10 million (generally elite) is more ethical than helping hundreds of millions (generally poor) through foreign aid?

There are millions of refugees in the world, and Australia could probably absorb a few more than we do currently - some 10,000 or less than 10% of our current immigration rate. If the citizens of Australia are willing to pay for more refugees, as long as the numbers fit within the 50,000 net, then so be it.

But the fact is that the government uses the other immigrants to pay for the refugees. Business migrants bring in money and create jobs to help pay for our refugee program. And also to prop up the housing and construction - development industry.

The truth is that all three levels of government in Australia are captured by the development industry. The media is dependent upon their advertisements, so we get fed a continuous line of growth is good philosophy, without any regard for the environmental losses or lifestyle changes we endure.

Multiculturalism and immigration is just another attempt to prop up these industries. As the driest inhabited continent with poor soils and high biodiversity we should be stabilising our population as soon as possible and assisting other nations with their stabilisation programs.

I kept my offspring to two in an effort to ensure they had a decent quality of life. I certainly don't want to be paying for baby bonuses or for those who have a lot of children because of some religious belief.

Binky

Desal and Immigration.

Ok so the desal plant has been canned for now http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/desalination-plant-dumped/2006/02/07/1139074234090.html

Its purpose was to accommodate the extra 100,000 immigrants coming to Sydney each year under the unholy alliance that exists between John Howard and Morris Iemma. I mean, Howard ups immigration to 140,000 knowing full well that at least 100,000 want to live in Sydney and Iemma organises with ALP donor developers to build pretty boxes for them to live in when they aren't clogging up freeways and shrinking open space. Its bloody teamwork.

In 5 years Sydney will have another 500,000 thirsty, angry multicultured go getters pushing their way over bodies, dead or alive to get to glory. Sutherland shire will get a fair proportion of these muticultures, the Desal plant will be resurected and there won't be so many people brave enough to protest.

In the meantime, Sydney water refuses to look at the benefits of stormwater harvesting, which is important for the unsustainable population of Sydney in the here and NOW. Can someone please inform them that you don't have to pump stormwater back to dams. Thats what God gave us RAIN for. All you have to do is hold stormwater in Engineered Wetlands where terrestrial evaporation gets locked into the sydney basin airshed and eventually rains out in the foothills of the Blue Mountains. Once stormwater is in coastal waters, complex thermodynamic interactions mean that very little of it reforms as rain over Sydney basin.

These Engineered Wetlands should cost around $500,000 apiece. Not over $2million apiece like the pork barrel design at Riverwood near Morris Iemma's electorate. This wetland still hasn't had its reed beds planted because they ran out of funding!

Well look here!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sydneys-underground-lakes-found/2006/02/08/1139074263283.html
No sooner than public opinion turns the tide against desal, Mr Iemma magically finds not one, but TWO lakes under Sydney.

I still can't help betting that certain big MacBanks are offering big MacPost-Ministerial jobs schemes to get our elected officials to be so unbelievably out of touch with public opinion.

I mean, CommBank just announced a half yearly $2billion profit, presumably by riding on the back of the immigration wave and at the expense of people in Sydney who are fobbed off with lousy hospital, transport, police and other services.

If Sydneysiders don't want a desal plant then its an odds on favourite they don't want continued immigration into Sydney.

->No more immigration MEANS no more water shortages, and an opportunity for all governmnet services to catch up to current population levels.

Further, if you extract water from sub Sydney aquifers, then connected regional aquifers are depleted. This causes dry conditions and drought in areas remote from Sydney. How smart is that? More water for Sydney's unarrived immigrants, more profits for MacBanks, more drought for NSW, more post ministerial job opprtunities for government officials and fewer basic services for the citizens who were stupid enough to vote for them.

Next bet! How long do you think NSW Labor will last with this kind of transparent tom-foolery?

Andrew Bartlett(http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4099#30127) wrote

"daggett - I know what's happening in South East Queensland. I've lived my whole life here."

Then, are you aware that that 700 hectares of bushland is being bulldozed each year in the Gold Coast shire alone to allow for new housing and infrastructure? How do you hope to stop this destruction if the Queensland Government continues with its insane plans to cram another 1.1 million into this region by 2026?

Also, developers are pushing to have a desalination plant, presumably powered with non-renewable coal, to support population growth in the Gold Coast. This is to be the first of a number planned for other coastal cities in Queensland. Can't you see that population levels that require the consumption of a finite non-renewable resource which cannot last for much more than 100 years in order to supply drinking water is UNSUSTAINABLE?

Andrew Bartlett wrote "Much of SEQ population growth (although obviously not all) is internal migration, which is rather harder to halt."

It is harder to halt, I agree, but what sense does it make for the Queensland Government to actually be encouraging this growth when our infrastructure and natural resources clearly can't cope with the existing population?

In any case, this discussion is about immigration into Australia, and if you continue to support high immigration levels, then you are effectively supporting the unsustainable growth in SEQ which it ultimately drives.

I would also be interested how you think that the water needs for the additional 1 million the NSW and Federal Governments plan to cram into the already hideously overcrowded Sydney basin in coming years. Do you believe that, perhaps, the desalination plant down there should not have been shelved (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/the-great-carr-crash/2006/02/08/1139379573532.html), or do you think that, instead, they should mine the underground aquifers in Sydney and the Southern Highlands with unpredictable environmental consequences?

If you insist on giving your support to high immigration levels, which you acknowledge, yourself, to be unpopular, then I think you owe, to the Australian public, your explanation as to how you think we should cope with the extra people.

How you think we should cope with the extra people?

You use the Tunnel Funnel Shuffle.

It goess like this:

Tunnel Funnel Shuffle
Apologies to Ashton, Gardner & Dyke lyrics

Choose yourself a partner
From the ASX floor
Blow a little kiss
To the CEO next door
Step on the gas
Put your head in the air
make a Mac-sign
And you throw back your hair

Think about desal now
You`re nice and high
You`re advocating immigration
But you don`t know why
Now you getting vibrations
All down to your feet
That`s the brow beatin`
Heavy ... anti desal beat

Put your hand on your hips
Now you let your policies flip
Put out your tongue
Put your hand in the air
Make a Mac-sign
You just don`t care

Now you feel free
You got a aquifer control
Extraction causes drought
Got a little bit of soul

You don`t have to think
You don`t have to move a muscle
dams drop to 30 percent
Its a Heavy leather
Dseal Resurrection shuffle

Alright
Oh, here we go again
Oh, that`s the tunnel funnel resurrection
You're doing it, alright

Your services are nothing
But you`re nice and high
You`re advocating immigration
But you won't say why

You`re getting vibrations
All down to your feet
That`s the riot heating, crime tweaking
Multicultural Heavy leather
Resurrection beat

Here we go again
Put your hand on your hip
You gotta let your
Services slip

Put out your tongue
Put your hand in the air
Make a Mac-sign like
You just don`t care

Now you feel free
You gotta lose control
All God`s children
Gota fight for their soul

You don`t have to think
You don`t have to move a muscle
To do the population beating
Heavy leather
Tunnel Funnel shuffle

You`re doing alright
Post ministerial scheme'll last you
For years and years
And it`s alright

You`re doing Mac alright
Don`t get uptight
Uh-huh, yeah
That sounds alright,