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The Forum > Article Comments > Joblessness and income inequality: has Australia taken the wrong turn? > Comments

Joblessness and income inequality: has Australia taken the wrong turn? : Comments

By Fred Argy, published 27/1/2006

Fred Argy explains the relationship between jobs and income equality and asks if Australia has the right mix.

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Well Fred thats an interesting question. Surely the answer lies on who you are in society. If you are well off looking to increase your profit take, the answer is a resounding NO. However if you are a young unskilled worker being kicked off welfare into working for the former, with no rights or protection, the answer is an emphatic YES.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 27 January 2006 9:27:21 AM
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These surveys falsely imply that economic policy, as set down by the goverment, is the main driver of future prosperity. Most of the countries in (4) have numerous social differences to countries like Austalia, not least of which is a) a high regard for science, technology and engineering, at both a practical and educational level (look at the TIMS survey); b) Money has been invested in productive industries versus unproductive fixed assets like housing; c) culturally insulated such that their smart people do not move overseas as much; d) etc.

These surveys therefore fail to recognize the contribution of the people, irresepective of the government. It may well be that the types of social systems different countries have are the best for those particular cultures, and therefore these are false comparisons, or it may be that government policy only has a weak influence on economic conditions.

Perhaps a better way to understand this is to look at other countries that have been successful of late that don't have such economic systems. Why has China been so successful of late ? Is it because of thoughtful planning by the government, or is it because once the people are left to do what they want to even a small degree, they are innovative and entrepernerial ?

The same is true of many of the other Asian countries that are succesful, like Singpaore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, and Japan. None of these countries have particularily strong social systems provided by their goverment, and indeed what their respective goverments do varies a lot. Yet all are rich countries. Is the common demoninator here government policy, or is it something that government policy can only change a small amount, like hard working and innovative ?
Posted by rc, Friday, 27 January 2006 9:46:03 AM
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RC I agree. Economic policy (and all policy) can only be framed within the context of the culture that it applies to. While the Scandavian model as outlined in the article may produce the best results across the board, would the high levels of taxation that go with it really be accepted here? And should they be accepted here? People might generally consider that having freedom to choose how they spend their money even outweighs the benefits of having a more equitable society. I think culture is the x-factor is a debate such as this.
Posted by Dick, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:00:11 PM
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RC and Dick. Can i take it that you therefore agree that there was no imperative for Howard to provide for laws that enable the stripping of wages and conditions from Austalian workers?
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:32:48 PM
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It's nice that four models produce different four results. Are these computer models? Do they have any correlation with reality? Where can we view the source code?

And with only two policy imputs how do we know the result in each country has anything at all to do with policy.

The USA is racially mixed with a difficult history (eg slavery, civil war etc). Most of Norway and Sweden is all white. Maybe it is the high level of gun ownership in Sweden that leads to equality.

The USA spends a lot on the military with a lot of this expenditure treated like a social program with cities competing to be hosts for military bases.

The USA is no less taxed than Australia. Its just that less of their taxes are by central government and more by the states. And they spend more on soldiers than single mums.
Posted by Terje, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:51:43 PM
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Fred, you rightly say that increased productivity is not the only goal of society and ask "Has Australia taken the wrong turn?" with its recent IR reforms. Your comparisons suggest that in other settings, a different policy mix has had superior results. However, as others have pointed out, there are many differences between countries and government policies are only one element in determining economic and other outcomes, rendering comparison difficult without a much more detailed analysis. We have embarked on a particular path. Perhaps its impact, if any, can be assessed prior to the next-but-one Federal election in terms of changes within Australia. I don't think an alternative approach will be adopted before then.
Posted by Faustino, Friday, 27 January 2006 1:24:40 PM
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Agree with the scepticism to the veracity and competency of the models.

I have some experience in building corporate models, PL/BS/CF stuff. They are pretty easy things, a few thousand variables, once you have the “sales”, capital, stock and trading days policies the rest is easy and you can get to within 5% overall accuracy which is good enough to “feel the trend”.

That is simple stuff. Government models have millions upon millions of variables.

But if we are talking about “happiness”, the drivers are subjective “emotions” rather than “quantitative” values, so “happy” has no base value to work from, unlike say a dollar income of value.

Then we get down to the nitty gritty.

Freds model suggests what? That greater government involvement in the area of wealth distribution generates greater happiness?

Government imposed wealth distribution can only be effected through taxation policy (open to any other suggestions but I know of no other fiscal lever that governments can play with.

Any assumption that higher taxes (to fund wealth distribution) generates greater happiness is false.

I recently checked.

I compared
1 happiness as measured as a life satisfaction index
against
2 most taxed, average worker.

Freds Theory and data suggest the greater the tax, to fund greater wealth redistribution, the happier (greater life satisfaction) people will be.

Now we could take direct comparisons.

Germany and France were used by Fred

Germany
Taxation 50.7
Life satisfaction 7.1

France
Taxation 48.3
Life satisfaction 6.6

Australia
Taxation 23.1
Life satisfaction 7.3

Overall, the correlation between wealth redistribution as measured by progressive tax levels and “life satisfaction” was -0.31

Now that is not much of a correlation until one considers the negative before the value.

The negative suggests that, whilst the correlation is not strong, what correlation there is, is of a negative nature. That would suggest that

The more wealth redistribution (higher taxes) which goes on the less life satisfaction is derived.

All Data sourced from

www.nationmaster.com


Happy to circulate actual detail values of all data and methodology to anyone interested
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 27 January 2006 2:50:56 PM
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[Deleted for flaming. Poster suspended for one week.]
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 27 January 2006 3:18:06 PM
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Interesting article, with unsurprising comments.

When is Australia going to realise: we are NEVER going to be able to compete with China and India on wages & labour costs. The only way our manufacturing and other sectors can compete is on skill, innovation and the quality of product and quality of service delivery. As Fred correctly notes, the recent WorkChoices campaign does absolutely nothing to promote skill, innovation or quality. Therefore, what direction are we going? I'm not sure, but I can say something for sure - it isn't a good time to be an average tradey or storeperson in Australia, as the erosion of pay and conditions is just about to begin.
Posted by jkenno, Friday, 27 January 2006 4:25:04 PM
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I am not economist type so forgive my drivel.

I was reading that france has an hourly productivity rate higher than the US. They just work a lot less hours.

So why are we pushing for longer and longer hours? It seems apparent that hourly productivity drops off after a certain amount of time. There must be an optimal work performance cutoff time. maybe 36 hours?

yet we are producing a workplace culture where efficiency means nothing, it is who is there ingnoring their family who get the pay rise? It is called visibility/networking apparently. Only those who work late are rewarded rather than being performance rewarded.

Should we focus more on results rather than time?

This would engage more passion in work by those who need to get off to cook dinner, buy groceries, take kids to sports and generally have a life. There is no motivation for these workers at all, so we are ignoring probably our greatest resource, the human one.
Posted by Verdant, Friday, 27 January 2006 8:15:38 PM
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A timely article, which confirms much of my reading on the subject though I would have appreciated references to supporting articles/studies etc.
Why haven’t the alternative parties used the success of Scandinavian societies as a model for a serious alternative to the direction Australia seems to be heading?
Posted by pancho, Friday, 27 January 2006 9:19:39 PM
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Truely I need to understand the shift in my lifetime in conservative thought.
Once in times of drought or almost any threat to farmers conservative goverments pork barreled and put cane farmers into public jobs all over Queensland ,to help the poor ?
Now some gain is seen in reduceing workers wages and rights?
This lurch to the right endangers Australias fair go mate way of life.
If our economy needs to creat a working poor so rich get richer we are truely in trouble.
A division has been opened and do not ever forget Howard makes battlers not defends them.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 28 January 2006 5:22:02 AM
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Many of the comments made about my little piece are perfectly valid. Social policy is only one of many factors impacting on economic growth. Countries also differ on such things as enterprise culture, work ethic, risk aversion, economic liberalism etc. and it is often hard to divorce social policy from the others.

But the Howard Government and its supporters have been constantly using the US, UK and NZ experience to ‘prove’ their case – implying a causal relationship between social policies and economic growth. This is silly. Such crude international comparisons are not what I was about. I was only pointing to the Nordic experience as evidence of COMPATIBILITY between large scale redistribution (larger than in Australia) and strong economic performance, provided the mix of redistribution instruments was well chosen (less employment regulation and more fiscal activism). A number of much more systematic and scientific papers than mine (including from the OECD) have concluded that the policies embraced by the Scandinavians explain a good deal of their success in reconciling efficiency with equity. It is not the whole story but it is part of it.

And by the way Col Rouge is very selective with his life satisfaction ratings. Had he looked at the Nordic countries he would have found that they, like Australia, rate among the happiest. According to World Values Survey, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands and Austria (all model 4 countries) rate higher than Australia in ‘subjective well being’ and much higher than Britain and the USA.

That said, I accept that we could never come even close to embracing the Nordic model, if only because of cultural differences and different attitudes to taxation but we could learn a few lessons from the Nordics (as well as the Anglo-Saxons) The Howard Government is taking a series of small steps towards the US model. Why not take a few small steps towards the Nordic model e.g. adopt their ideas on training, education, active labour market programs, work-to-welfare incentives and early childhood intervention policies? The American way isn’t the only way.
Posted by freddy, Saturday, 28 January 2006 8:55:18 AM
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Pancho, “Why haven’t the alternative parties used the success of Scandinavian societies as a model for a serious alternative to the direction Australia seems to be heading?” What alternative parties are you talking about, we only have one party, with a couple of factions. They try to fool us into thinking they offer options, can you see any from any of them.

Freddy, I like you article Its a good analyse of whats happening, but like most academics, has no real answers. Just semantic suppositions. Not being a number cruncher or academic, yet may be classed a successful business person. I see my employees as the backbone of my business and reward them accordingly with livable wages and bonuses. As the business has frown, so has their income. 95% of my staff have been with me for more than 7 years. I no the strength of their loyalty, When I sold up and relocated to tas, they asked to move with me. That's make them happy and me feel really successful and happy.

The excuse used by the non caring corporates, constantly telling us that they are there for their shareholders, are basically lying. they own most of the shares and hold the top jobs, receiving monstrous incomes for little work, so they get it both ways. The small shareholder or those that have been stupid enough to put their money into institutional superannuation corporations are just feeding the corporates.

Progress and success comes with a happy comfortable population, not the greed of a moronic corporate elite. Hows your smile Col.
Posted by The alchemist, Saturday, 28 January 2006 10:24:55 AM
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Freddy I was not selective at all. I responded to France and Germany only because you identified them as particular examples or instances as in your article – viz.

“Model 3 is found among the larger continental Europeans such as France and Germany and some of their neighbours. It redistributes on a large scale, making extensive use of EPL and unconditional income support.”

The negative correlation derived from my comparison of the life satisfaction and tax/earnings ratings was based on the data for all the countries available from the www.nationmaster.com tables, where their was data in both instances (ie I ignored the tax /earnings rating of countries which had not supplied life satisfaction data)

To itemise, some, from the nationmaster data

Country
Tax to Earnings
Life Satisfaction

Australia
23.1
7.3

Denmark
44.2
8.0

Finland
45.9
7.5

Norway
37.0
7.4

Sweden
48.6
7.5

Then we might look at

Switzerland
29.5
8.0

Those “happiest of all” Swiss with a Tax environment a lot closer to Australia than Scandinavia.

Now I would suggest, compared to Australia, losing around 25% of your gross income (which is probably closer to 70% of your disposable income) in tax for “wealth redistribution” is not a good “investment” based on the very marginal increases in “life satisfaction”.

I have forwarded what I produced on to Graham Young for transmission to yourself and your review.

I have used all and only the data which was available at www.nationmaster.com
I have not contrived to load or stack the results.
Should you find any errors, please correct for them and present your own “corrected” results.
However, considering the marginal effect of individual results on correlations, I doubt you will reveal anything of significance.

Heavy government intercession strategies are the tools of the the Cromwellian Levellers and the failed Eastern European Economies, who perceived, wrongly, a danger from people developing to their own full potential by exercising the greatest personal discretion over both their individual earning and spending capacity.

My greatest concern is, how many “real” opportunities are lost when repressive tax regimes stifle the incentive and innovation of individuals?
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 28 January 2006 11:35:54 AM
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I think we are well on the road to American style economy where the General Motors workers in Flint Michigan are being offered pay cuts off 50% and loss of their medical benefits as the company punishes its workers for loss of market share. Meanwhile the boss continues to collect a multimillion dollar salary for directing production lines to produce vehicles the consumers don't want.

Look at the article by Martin Flanagan in The Age saying that Australia is going from Victorian values to Georgian values. He mentions "Slavery"

In the book review section there is an article headlined Oliver Twist was a slave.

On Channel 2 this weekend there is a program that says the concept of race was devised to justify slavery.

No, its not a good time in a Australia to be a wage or salary earneror small business owner, but its an excellent time to be an employer of 100+ employees.

Like Fred, I am saddened to see Australia to take this road and I feel its so unnecessary.
Posted by billie, Saturday, 28 January 2006 1:54:26 PM
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Yes
Posted by tubley, Saturday, 28 January 2006 2:22:50 PM
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I think the amount people are taxed by each country is misleading because many of those countrys have been running deficits (borrowing money) each year which in the end will need to be payed back in the future. From what I know Australia doesn't hasn't had a deficit for many years and has been paying down the debt.
Posted by geoff_, Saturday, 28 January 2006 5:58:58 PM
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Alchemist, Fred isn't a life-time academic, but a former Commonwealth department head involved in economic policy development at a high level for many years.

Fred, you wrote in your response "Why not take a few small steps towards the Nordic model e.g. adopt their ideas on training, education, active labour market programs, work-to-welfare incentives and early childhood intervention policies? The American way isn’t the only way." I don't have info on what the Nordic countries do, but in general active labour programs seem to have little success, a poor benefit-cost ratio. Education reforms and wtw incentives are under considerstion here, if moving far too slowly. I agree that one of the most effective areas for intervention is in early childhood, particularly in disdvantaged/dysfunctional families. This is in fact an area where America leads, in terms of having tried and empirically tested many models - there's an enormous US literature on this topic. James Heckman is a good starting point. Part of the economic interest in the US comes from human capital aspects of endogenous growth theory.
Posted by Faustino, Saturday, 28 January 2006 6:39:21 PM
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Geoff,

I have some bad news for you. Although the federal government has achieved a budget surplus for some years, our balance of payments deficit continues to balloon to the point that our net foreign debt is approaching $500 billion. The reaction of the media to this is that it doesn't want to know, and only mentions the balance of trade (which is also in massive deficit), except for one or two references a year. The real meaning of this is that Australia is living very much beyond its means, and when the day comes that the debt is called in, there will be a major crisis, similar to what happened in Argentina. This has happened twice before in our history, in 1893 and 1932, when the federal government defaulted on its bonds. This crisis will result in a marked decline in the living standard of average Australians, but the internationally competitive sector will be able to maintain their standard, leading to a much greater gap bewteen rich and poor.
Posted by plerdsus, Saturday, 28 January 2006 8:33:14 PM
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Plerdseus is right.$500 billion is more than half our GDP.This is $50,000.oo for every working person.Our balance of payments will continue to accelerate as China and India take not only our manufacturing but IT jobs also.Once the knowledge and skills are gone,it will take decades to catch up,if ever, when we realise our folly.

Why not choose industries to compete in and make the playing field truly level.Presently it is like pitching a Dolphin against Ian Thorpe and saying compete you laggard.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 29 January 2006 9:30:16 AM
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There's not much to argue about with your statistical models, Fred.
The consequent value judgements are,of course, another matter entirely. They can only be subjective, political assessments.
My particular slant is that government is a necessary evil; more evil than necessary though. Accordingly, the less they touch the better off we all are in my own peculiar estimation. I see redistribution as larceny; unforgivable under almost any circumstances. A dollar once filtered through the social kidney of a government is irretrievably corrupted and forever diminished. In turn it contaminates everything and everyone it touches..

What are the immediate moral consequences and longterm economic results of causing people to believe that 'redistribution' is not just acceptable but morally good?

The (very visible) dead hand very clearly gains the upper position.

So, as a matter of sociobiological health we move towards a US model based on pitting everyone against each other in socio-economic competition. Is it right or good? Who cares? At least we're not demonstrating to our kids that they might be OK going into this world with the expectation that it will feed and nurture them even if they are silly enough to choose the wrong job, wrong industry, wrong country...

Have a happy week.

Alf.
Posted by J. Alfred Prufrock, Sunday, 29 January 2006 9:30:47 PM
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How is it that the $ is the value being used to judge the success of governments and societies? Money is simply an idea that humans use to value exchanges. It is the quality of our lives that is the real measure and to that end our government is a failure.

Yet somehow that $ has become the focus rather than the items exchanged.

Surplus budgets really only prove one thing don't they? That governments are spending less than we are being taxed. In other words by over taxing. No more, no less.
Posted by RobbyH, Monday, 30 January 2006 12:00:05 PM
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The US basic wage is a great deal less then ours. Wal-mart is currently being targeted by the left as a cruel low paying employer while the right is saying the wal-mart over pays. Do we really want to follow the US down that road. Surely there is another way. Great piece Fred.
Posted by Kenny, Monday, 30 January 2006 12:25:58 PM
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Fred refers in his post to more interventionist policies on "training, education, active labour market programs, work-to-welfare incentives and early childhood intervention policies." Elsewhere, he has argued for more spending on economic and social infrastructure. While he generally makes a good case, the main flaw is that most implementation would need to be by state governments, and the standard of those governments is generally appalling. I won't quote chapter and verse here, I've made comments in other threads, but the main reason I favour small government is that I know from sad experience advising government leaders et al just how bad the quality of policy development and decision-making is, and how rarely do decisions lead to effective and efficient use of resources for the broad community interest. I met some good federal ministers in the Hawke years, but at state level the great majority lack the capacity, understanding and ethics to identify and pursue sensibly the policies which would be required for a Fred-ised society. Perhaps governance standards are higher in the Nordic countries.
Posted by Faustino, Monday, 30 January 2006 5:17:50 PM
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Transferring jobs overseas should be prepared to share their super-profit inside country of residence - or follow their enterprises to the third world countries.

That is the end of story.
Posted by MichaelK., Monday, 30 January 2006 5:32:50 PM
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Alfred, Agreed with your post, statistics excepted, Freddy’s statistics are "arguable".

Re “The (very visible) dead hand very clearly gains the upper position.”
- Doubtless as it casts a dark shadow over the “Wasteland”?

RobbyH imho, your analysis is correct, excepting the variables of budgeting by government are volatile and exact flow matching difficult. However, the surpluses of the past 10 years have been used to redeem the debt incurred through Hawke/Keating’s mismanagement. Now that has been almost paid down, closer attention should be made to making peoples superfund contributions tax free, encouraging saving instead of consumption.

Kenny - have you ever shopped in a WalMart? They (Walmart) get what they pay for and the ones who work there are not forced to be there.

Someone on another thread mentioned GM in Flint, Michigan in a similar context. Well US Car Industry, GM/Ford/Chrysler have been acting like dinosaurs for years. Currently, their shares are traded as “junk bonds”. Some sectors of US industry are overdue for “rationalisation” (= trying to stop the financial haemorrhaging ), which Ford have just announced. In those cirumstances of reducing employment opportunity, the lucky ones, in the short term, might be seen as those who keep their jobs.

I do recall Microsoft has produced a significant number of millionaire employees, those who held onto their employee share issues. I doubt they have need or would be in favour of Freddy’s experiment in government directed wealth re-distribution and social re-engineering.

MichaelK the problem with such a policy is, such embargoes would see the enterprise go off-shore, third world or not. Then we would no longer have the income from those “super-profits” being levied any taxes in Australia or distributed as dividend back to Australian individuals and Australian super-funds.

Rather than “End of Story”, that would be the “End of Business” in Australia and an economic disaster.
Posted by Col Rouge, Monday, 30 January 2006 8:45:31 PM
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I don't think we've found the right mix at all.

I've been to the outer Western suburbs of Melbourne, Wirribee, Hoppers Crossing, Altona areas etc. Full of migrants, full of working class people and a large amount of housing commission homes - those who have been lost in the sytem of Centrelink, many single mothers and so on.

Apparently the Salvos in these areas are struggling to keep up with the demand for food and clothing. It's heart wrenching to hear the stories. Not all lost causes, just people who have lost hours of work or cannot find an occupation and who are laughed at by certain hypocrites who live in wealthy homes among the poor in these areas - all the while throwing rotten fruit at them.

Many people are being forced to travel across to the other side of Melbourne by train only to get meagre wages, casual rates with no penalties. Families are breaking down and all the while you find low life scum bags putting them down. What a high order of mongrels they belong to.

Oh there are wealthy homes here, with people earning good money but there is a the vastly hidden poor who will be kept poor by the greedy.

No, sorry. I don't think Australia has "the right mix".
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 12:24:19 PM
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Tubley,

People were not LOST in a net of Centrelink - they ARE KEPT in the net of poverty and cheap slave-job-conditions spreading with IR newly-established on a broader number of the ousted from works moved overseas. Col Rouge is right that it is not the end of a story on merites of a historical run.
Posted by MichaelK., Tuesday, 31 January 2006 1:43:00 PM
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I mentioned the plight of the workers at the GM plant in Flint Michigan because they currently are paid low wages and they are being offered lower wages. There is still a high demand for vehicles in the USA but Ford and GM don't build what consumers want. We should consider massive executive salaries to the heads of "dinosaur" corporations to be obscene.

I think globalisation is wrong, it doesn't promote efficient or sustainable economic outcomes for society.

If corporations were taxed on their Australian turnover, there would be less incentive to import goods that can be produced in Australia. let me explain:

In 1972 I worked on the Joseph Lucas starter motor line and we worked on old machinery that had been sent out from the Coventry factory in the 1920s, after 50 years the machinery was tired, and lets face it I am not a skilled manual worker. 75% of motors were rejected at quality control. Why did the company allow this to continue, they imported sealed beam head light units from Canada, via Hong Kong, at a vastly inflated price, and the losses from their Australian operation offset the parent company's profit. eventually the factory was sold and Southland Shopping Centre occupies the site.

Currently Woolworths and Coles are importing food from China, Thailand and New Zealand, whats going to happen when the australian farmers are forced out of business?
We know transport prices are going to increase and the asia is becoming more affluent so Australians will have to compete against Asians for food grown in Asia.

I have noticed that the train services are looking for part time train station staff. 30 years ago, neither the railways or trams thought it was fair to offer workers split shifts and I think its unfair to make workers cross town for 1 hour of work. In fact unions fought to stop split shifts.
Posted by billie, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 3:18:32 PM
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I truely fear the outcomes this thread highlights as a result of an act of parlement.
Unions must use this bill to reinvent themselves and find new ways and a renewed mainstream activism to fight to defend workers from a slide into povity.
A trade unionist till death but a realist as well the movement must understand conservatives earn wages to and a responsive unionism can serve them too.
Room exists for a smarter more listening and learning union movement.
Its never wrong to feel pain at not being able to help a member ,but its a crime to be unconcerned at that scene.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 7:06:50 PM
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There has been much debate over the details of this article, but the key point seems to me to be that our Federal government has chosen to adopt and pursue an economic policy framework with questionable benefits to the majority of the population.

Increasing taxation is not necessary in order to effect a more equitable wealth distribution. Recent budget statements suggest that the current tax reveue is more than adequate to begin now.

Not all reforms need be targeted at the bottom end of the employment scale. There are plenty of unemployed or underemployed professionals and tradespeople who have qualifications but are not able to use them.

Some applicants _never_ get selected for jobs that make use of their education, and eventually they take anything they can get. I know of a person working in a call centre. He has a First Class Honours in Physics. There is four years of mathematics and data analysis gone to waste.

We are told lots about 'reforms' needed to 'improve efficiency' and blah de blah. How is it an efficient or effective to throw away four years of higher education? Particularly when he has to pay for the privilege of acquiring them by answering a telephone. He has spectacularly low job satisfaction.

My point is this: consider the human beings that are the 'beneficiaries' of all these social engineering experiments. It doesn't take much to ask us a few questions, and to take us into consideration in planning and so forth.

I do it all the time. But then I have little else to do with my educated mind as I find myself excluded from the job market. A law degree doesn't guarantee you anything these days, except a HECS debt. Perhaps I should be laughing? I got tens of thousands of dollars worth of education from the taxpayers purse, and since they won't include me in the game, I cannot earn enough to pay any of it back.

But really, is *that* any kind of efficient or effective way for an economy, or society, to function?
Posted by maelorin, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 10:56:17 PM
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Maelorin your post adds to my point , as a trade unionist I seak fairness and equity for all who work.
Not an unrealistic group of comerades or brothers.
A group of modern income earners who want honesty and fairness in the workplace.
These jobs new conservative radicalism promise are a shadow, if we need to trade workers standard of liveing for a stronger economy we are very foolish to continue.
The Union movement , at least parts of it will execpt the chalange and evolve or forever be marjinalised , I am confedent survival will be the out come .
The union movement needs people like you to inform and assist in this new period of growth and new directions.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 4:18:56 AM
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Tubley, I thought you were a 28 year old male teacher form Queensland.
Re “I've been to the outer Western suburbs of Melbourne, Wirribee, Hoppers Crossing, Altona areas etc.”

I have lived and owned houses in Hoppers Crossing for the past 23 years.

Based on where I live and where you live, I would rank my knowledge of local conditions in the West of Melbourne as superior to anything you are capable of commenting on.

In those 23 years have seen an explosion of ever increasing level of local employment visible all along the Geelong Road Corridor from the Western Ring Intersection to Lara. I can buy biscuits made in Laverton, cars made in Altona and fertiliser produced in Lara.

Anyone travelling to the other side of Melbourne for a pittance is doing it because they are masochists who like the pain.

I myself decline “opportunities” East or South of Mulgrave because I cannot be bothered with the travel.

The subsistence nature of the dole is not there for long term use but as the bottom line of survival.
Self Esteem, dignity, a sense of worth and social participation will never ever be found in the dole or any other “bottom of the muck heap” existence subsidy.

Billie, No point in forming policy on one particular experience and 50 year old equipment. One reason I might suggest, Lucas saw the Aussie factory as supplying local needs and nothing more. They were short sighted and so were you for expecting to stay there.

Belly – you make good points (as usual).

Maelorin – re underemployed professional people. I could count myself among them if I had not taken things in hand. Instead of watching the inevitable happen and ending up underemployed and broke I did something, retrained, acquired news skills and now ply the full range of capabilities, old and new.
The point is it is up to the individual to plan, market, promote and thus deploy themselves. It is not up to government to find them a cosy niche and wrap them in a security blanket
Posted by Col Rouge, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 5:11:41 AM
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Col Rouge, Lucas was a summer job that I left for a professional job where my meal allowance equalled my gross pay at the factory.

This corporations behaviour is not an isolated incident, it's repeated again and again through out the Australian economy.

Glad to know you have found your retraining has paid off. Many people train or retrain for professions that simply have an over supply of labour.

For example, in Victoria, there is supposedly a shortage of teachers. A check of the recruitment website showed 79 advertised vacancies after the first day of term, a day that anecdotally, has frantic school principals hunting for staff. There are 100,000 teachers in Victoria - all jobs must be advertised on this website.

I need to retrain and obviously I have been unable to pick the labour shortages so Col Rouge could you please advise me.
Posted by billie, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 8:22:10 AM
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Yes Col, I'm a Queenslander but I do visit other places. As for my reference in my earlier post, I have a friend in Hoppers Crossing, Victoria. They live in Guinane Avenue, fairly plush place to live, not really my style though. Your loyalty to your class admirable as is mine to my own.

I see what I see through my eyes and you through yours, fair enough.
Posted by tubley, Wednesday, 1 February 2006 2:12:52 PM
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Billie the Lucas corporations behaviour is common among the short sighted and unimaginative.
That is one reason I moved off the direct corporate ladder into the consultancy role. I did not tie myself to their short sighted views and style. The world is not a perfect place, expect the imperfections. I set myself up with a job helping to remove them.

Billie, without knowing you better, it is hard to be specific

Talk to a career planner – I did
A good planner will help you work out what you need to do to achieve what you want.
Try to work with an A plan, B plan and C plan. Do not put all your efforts into just one opportunity, select things which utilise as well as expand on your historic skills base if possible and may also include things you are personally passionate about.

I have 3 plans all of which work for me, at different levels.

Billie, the limit to your own opportunity is between your ears and that is your own imagination. Find something you can do better than other people and help those other people improve their lives by supplying your superior skill in that particular area.

email me through Graham Young if you wish

Tubley – I have visited Queensland. I have no doubt, your local knowledge is superior to mine. It is a fact. As far as Melbourne is concerned, I “live” what you “looked at” and have superior knowledge to you. Pretend all you want but denial of that obvious reality is the province of the deluded.

As for “loyalty to class” that’s a hoot.

I never think about “class”, “classes” or my place in them. My socio-economic grouping, on today’s classifications, is “1”.
Anyone who measures themselves (as you obviously do) and others on such a banal parameter as “class” is stuck in the past and restricting their personal growth and development opportunity by visualising themselves being constrained to a negative and artificial labelling system.
Get with the program tubley, see people as individuals and you will transcend all this “class” rubbish.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 2 February 2006 4:43:56 AM
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Col Rouge,you spend to much time doing postings. None of them adding any matters of substance to the debate. It is time to move out into the world. Become the 1 you dream of. Imagine all that extra time to build your wealth, if only you can resist the urge to constantly remind Online posters of your magnificence. Go Col Go, theres millions to be made out there. You will never convince those Union loving lefty loons of the joys of individualism. Give up trying. Get out there, maxamise your income,minimise your tax, and give a little to charity,just in case God exists. Go for it Col,good luck and god bless.
Posted by hedgehog, Thursday, 2 February 2006 9:52:55 AM
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Hedgehog…

Good post – your use of positive encouragement is refreshing.

Being the magnificent economist he is, Col might be able to optimise his opportunity to gain more money by ignoring those who he so blatantly despises.

Col…

You have used groupings on so many occasions on this forum and now you preach individualism? I am almost laughing right now.
Posted by tubley, Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:59:14 AM
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It is nice to realise that some other disputants understand a difference between particularity and longevity of processes, of which “nothing can be developed from vacuum” is a very notion.

Being No1 in own eyes helps team playing a little – and sounds as a weak excuse on all merits.
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:13:45 PM
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Thanks, Col, now I understand.

'Anyone who measures themselves (as you obviously do) and others on such a banal parameter as “class” is stuck in the past and restricting their personal growth and development opportunity by visualising themselves being constrained to a negative and artificial labelling system.'

As, like you, an immigrant from the UK, I'd love to hear your accent. Your words have the whiff of special pleading. Not to mention meaningless self-help jargon. If it works for you, well and good, but your form of Thatcherite individualism can never be a universal panacea. 'There is no such thing as society' is one of the most asinine statements of all time. No society equals no law, no commerce, no education. Presumably you're not that rugged an individualist, and Mrs Thatcher demonstrably wasn't.
Posted by veryself, Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:24:33 PM
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i'm already university educated lawyer, biologist, educator and computer scientist/technologist. that already has employers going boggle-eyed.

"we don't know what to do with you"

i'm working on a business plan for my own business. if i can't join'em perhaps i can try to beat'em ...

my point still holds though. being educated and keen isn't enough. nor are 'incentives' ... there has to be a real will out in employer-land to actually shift from their comfort zones a little.

so much talk about "knowledge-based economy" and "creative-blah" ... not enough actual doing of either.
Posted by maelorin, Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:32:51 PM
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Hedgehog “Col Rouge,you spend to much time doing postings. “
When you pay me you get to say how long I should spend doing anything.
Until that time, your view on my time deployment is irrelevant, likewise your aside concerning “substance”.

Tubley, I believe societies have only one functioning part, the individual. All other descriptions regarding people are merely different collective nouns for individuals.

Veryself – my comment regarding collective nouns to tubley applies equally to your post.

Further, if you are going to quote someone, get the whole quote and not the little bit which suites your purpose.
“There is no such thing as Society. There are individual men and women, and there are families. “
And in the context of the UK in 1970’s, following almost 15 years of socialist mismanagement, bungling incompetence in matters fiscal, a government kowtowing to union directives and the endemic institutionalization of industrial resources into theorized corporations devoid of innovation or entrepreneurial skill, to the point of their own collapse (BMC, British Steel etc) she was dead right. The society the socialists carved out was a hollow sham purchased at the expense of Britain’s competitive strengths by the repressive meddling of the grey levelers. Such a negative socialist environment saw the mass migration of those Britain’s who wished to escape repressive socialism to other places, including Australia, where they and previous immigrants (from various programs, some less enlightened than others) brought strengths of innovation and work ethic.
And my accent, it holds true to the county of my birth and might surprise you.

Maelorin suggest you put your extensive analytical skills to use and do what I suggested to Billie “Find something you can do better than other people and help those other people improve their lives by supplying your superior skill in that particular area”
Oh remember, you will need to market it, you might know what you have but your potential clients / customers will not until you tell them (and employers are ‘customers’ by another name)
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 3 February 2006 6:07:13 AM
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Fabulous Col. How much do you want to stand on your head wearing a dress singing Solidarity Forever at the top of your voice.?
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 3 February 2006 11:32:07 AM
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Hedgehog “Fabulous Col. How much do you want to stand on your head wearing a dress singing Solidarity Forever at the top of your voice.?”

I recall rousing choruses and verses of “The Working Class can kiss my A$$”
Sung to the tune “le internationale” in my college days in West Bromwich.

However these days, I would charge a lot more and if the your material wealth is as robust as your cerebral wealth, just asking half a dollar would be enough to break the budget.

Oh from your post, the suggestion re “cross dressing”, that indicates you prefer to live your sad little life vicariously?
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 4 February 2006 12:55:33 AM
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Col,
I must apologise for my previos compiments of You, You have obviously reverted back to your nasty demeaning old self, what a pity when you were at last showing signs of being a human being......
Posted by SHONGA, Thursday, 9 February 2006 5:00:47 AM
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C'mon Col , how much? Dont worry about my budget, anything for a buck, you right wing pom. Listen it doesnt have to be your dress, you can borrow one.
Posted by hedgehog, Thursday, 9 February 2006 8:24:12 AM
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“The Working Class can kiss my A$$” is a perfectly correct attitude – as long as “Working Class” that is low-paid, “wet backs” and other under-castes migrants pay Col. Rouge & Co rent in full, paying off their properties obtained too often on bank credits provided under property already mortgaged on money being siphoned from overseas.

Let one tales that no classes exist
Posted by MichaelK., Thursday, 9 February 2006 10:38:20 AM
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In relation to workers at General Motors, billie wrote:

>>they currently are paid low wages and they are being offered lower wages<<

One of the most significant problems at GM right now is the drag caused their massive pension scheme, and the ballooning costs associated with their health care programmes.

How did this come about? Back in the 1950s, the union persuaded the company to fund these benefits. As the Washington Post reported last year, "Commitments for pensions and 'other post-employment benefits'... had little initial impact on GM's profit statement and didn't count as obligations on its balance sheet. So why not keep employees happy with generous benefits? It was a free lunch."

But as everybody in business knows, there is no such thing.

When the accounting rules changed, and companies were forced to show these commitments as liabilities in their balance sheet, a massive hole - over $80billion in GM's case - showed up.

What role did government policy play in all this? They certainly didn't force GM to agree to the unions' demands. What they did – eventually – was to insist that companies properly account for these demands, at which point the truth emerged.

The reality is that businesses survive when their revenues exceed their expenses. Governments have little impact on this equation in a positive direction, and plenty in the negative. If the government makes it more difficult (read: expensive) to hire the next employee, jobs are likely to suffer. In addition, the company is prevented from growing as fast as it might.

I'm still recovering from the shock I received seven-odd years ago when my business got to the size where I had to pay Payroll Tax to the State government. For every fifteen or so employees, the government actively extracts from my company the dollar equivalent of the sixteenth person.

If only there was one government minister who actually knew how businesses run. Or even someone in the Public Service with some hands-on experience, to advise. Instead we have academic timeservers advising a bunch of ex-schoolteachers and lawyers.

That's a generalization, of course.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 9 February 2006 12:31:42 PM
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Generalization says Pericles. I thought what he said regarding public servants advising teachers and lawyers (aka Pollies) was spookingly accurate.
Posted by hedgehog, Thursday, 9 February 2006 1:02:18 PM
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Pericles, one large multinational operating in australia had as its mission statement " We are in business to make a profit in a socially acceptable manner".

Now General Motors is still a viable organisation - it still manufactures vehicles but has moved its production to Mexico and South Africa. Surely workers in a country as rich as the United States are entitled to a reasonable standard of health care, their children should be able to be educated and they should not have to work til they drop.

The current IR climate in Australia and in the United States is not not promoting a just, civil society and organisations pursuit of the almighty profit without regard to the long term cost to the society within which they operate isn't fair and often not sustainable.
Posted by billie, Thursday, 9 February 2006 5:03:13 PM
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SHONGA, how would you know how to make a comparison to a human being, when you so obviously lack access to any standard of measurement?



Hedgehog, I respect dumb critters, especially hedgehogs. I have been lenient with you, thus far but you are starting to become repetitious and that just means boring.
Whilst I am sure you would find it amusing, the full value of a performance by me would just go over your head.



MichaelK

Oh singing rugby songs is a great British tradition and has produced such classics as “Four and Twenty Virgins”, “The Good Ship Venus” and “Eskimo Nell” (Oh you would like this one, references to Mexican Pete, a well known “wet-back”),

Actually of “the working class”, the full text of the first two versus goes

The working class
Can kiss my a**
I've got the foreman's
Job at last

I'm out of work
And on the the dole
You can stick your red flag
Up your h*le

The next couple of versus are a lament about a young lady in Gibraltar, whose condition is parodied to flying a red flag. However, I will resist its exact wording to avoid the (rightful) wrath of our able and capable censor.

And as for “wet-backs”, I am sure you, in true Mexican style, closer resemble a “peon”.




Billie – Pericles is right about GM. (Well said Pericles)

Ford are in the same state and Chrysler lurches from one financial crisis to financial crisis. Their shares (owned by those who financed all the jobs) have the status of junk bonds.

As for “viable”, in commercial (and consequently social) terms, a business is “viable” when it can be seen to be able generate a medium and long term positive cashflow and profit (short term flows can fluctuate and be funded through borrowings). GM is today where its inability to negotiate with its own work force have got it, to the edge of financial collapse.
Posted by Col Rouge, Thursday, 9 February 2006 6:04:25 PM
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billie, I'm sure you have worked for companies, and understand the way they work.

>>one large multinational operating in australia had as its mission statement " We are in business to make a profit in a socially acceptable manner"<<

You can picture the situation as easily as I can. The seminar room full of earnest beavers from human resources and marketing, sitting together in their retreat in the Blue Mountains, separating into four-person workshops to come up with a slogan like this one.

It is the sort of mission statement I would expect from Philip Morris. Defensive, defiant, and irrelevant.

The first notion you need to discard is this image of every company being run by tyrants, whose sole objective is to make the maximum amount of money for themselves. The majority of employees in Australia work for small companies, who wouldn't survive two weeks with such a philosophy.

Generalizing from the particular is a dangeraous way to arrive at the truth. To say that every company is run like Enron, or has incompetent management like OneTel, or adopts predatory marketing practices like Microsoft, is simply wrong. Employment can only be guaranteed by viable businesses, and viable businesses need a balance between profitability in the market and care for the resources used to achieve that profit. One of which is people.
Posted by Pericles, Saturday, 11 February 2006 7:52:32 AM
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Thankful for Col.Rouge's further enlightening me with British traditions, I would say that “Workers round a world- unite!” is not less common expression associating with a working class in context of this discussion than some stadium-goers’ noise reaching time by time pages not Australian newspapers only
Posted by MichaelK., Sunday, 12 February 2006 3:39:52 PM
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