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The Forum > Article Comments > From Mecca To Baghdad, Bakr to Bush > Comments

From Mecca To Baghdad, Bakr to Bush : Comments

By Cameron Riley, published 27/1/2006

Cameron Riley argues the US suffers from a dependence on a military-industrial economy.

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Quite a good summary of things actually.

Welcome to the realities of history and now. At least, the USA is a democracy, and governments CAN (and are) be voted 'out'.
This is one very important difference between the Islamic caliphate and the USA.

Understanding world history is as simple as understanding the story of Abraham and Lot, when their herdsmen quarrelled over pasture (Gen 13)

[5 Now Lot, who was moving about with Abram, also had flocks and herds and tents. 6 But the land could not support them while they stayed together, for their possessions were so great that they were not able to stay together. 7 And quarreling arose between Abram's herdsmen and the herdsmen of Lot.]

Whether its family or tribes or nations.. conflict is about RESOURCES.
If you don't have them, and someone else does, you either seek to cultivate a friendly relationship of trade and diplomacy or you declare war on them.
If it gets too close to the survival issue, war is usually declared anyway !

The UN and the romantically naive and unfounded optimistic idealism about human nature driving much of the Left, will evaporate at the first 'water shortage' or the such like.

Some nations will be like Lot...

"and he saw that the Jordan valley was green and well watered, so he CHOSE that for himself"

While Abraham went elsewhere. Of course, selfishness did not help Lot in the long run, alah Sodom and Gomorah. But many nation-states don't see this as happening to them. They all have their 'NeoCons'.

At its most fundamental level, where you have just TWO people dependant on resources, their cooperation will usually last until survival becomes the issue. At its macro level, nation-states are the same.

Human nature being what it is, there are also pride and greed issues not just simple survival.

HAMAS has just been elected into government, and Armageddon is one step closer. Lot and Abraham are at it again. But this time, Abraham is not 'giving Lot the choice'...he is keeping what he has, and "Lot" is not happy with this
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 27 January 2006 9:22:07 AM
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Cameron,

Not sure I understand the 'link' between US neo-Cons and Islamic caliphates. There is a 14 centuries of difference and this creates all the difference.

14 centuries ago, there was no soverenty or borders. The Caliphates, Crusades, Roman and Byzantine were living were war was the norm. Having a strong army was the only guarantee of survival.

Its sad your article points that nothing have changed, the law of the jungle still remains.

Boaz,

Again you jump in with the biblical armagedon and quickly mix religion, history geography and politics.

Armageddon is a self fulfilling prophecy for the lazy and the vicious.
Hamas could have never come to power if neo-cons like yourselves gave the average palestinian a hope to live for and a job opportunity rather than stuffing them up for the last 5 decades.

Give us a break!
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 27 January 2006 10:21:19 AM
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Fellow Human, "Not sure I understand the 'link' between US neo-Cons and Islamic caliphates."

It isnt really about neocons and caliphates, more about having an army of conquest that those in power will find ways to use. Mohammad's Army was for uniting the Arabs. once Bakr had achieved that he suddenly had a large and powerful army. No-one wanted to give that power up, so it went on a new conquest - the Persians in Iraq. The army was intended as a state of exception until the Arabs were united, but that exception became a state of permanence.

The US found itself in the same situation. It became a world power in four short years during the state of exception that was WWII. Then another state of exception, the Cold War, followed soon after. In the 1990s there were calls to close bases, bring troop shome, cut military budgets and stop weapons programs. But politicians, regions and communites were dependent on that military money. The US also did not want to give up that massive power or projection and the hegemony that came with it.

So the state of exception became a state of permanence with Iraq. The neocons found a new way to maintain the state of exception, and consequent US military power.

cam
Posted by cam, Friday, 27 January 2006 2:02:25 PM
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Cameron,

Thanks for clarifying your perspective.
There is little accuracy in your definition of how the early islamic empire functioned. in the Islamic empire, armies where not dedicated (ie army personnel will go back to their normal jobs after a war or a conquest which is similar to military reserve system).
Even a Caliphate is likely to have a job (farmer or sheppard) when they are not at war.

The US follows the example of the Roman empire where the army/ military are dedicated personnel and force and hence the war machine becomes an economical driver (ie the war machine drives the large industries and large industries, in turn, stimulates small industries and business services).

The Roman / Byzantine / Mongols empires are much closer examples.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 27 January 2006 2:39:04 PM
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Fellow Human, "in the Islamic empire, armies where not dedicated"

Yes, and the US soldiers dont get to divide the treasure of a land they conquer. I am not arguing about the structure of the army. Just that once a political grouping gains its power through a dominant military during a state of exception, it is politically unable, and unwilling to lose that power. The functions and prestige of state/culture/society become entwined with the military. It doesnt seem to matter if it is a trading society, an agrarian one, or an industrial one.
Posted by cam, Friday, 27 January 2006 10:46:05 PM
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When people go to war and are asked to make the ultimate sacrifice, it is not plunder, things they know they may not enjoy, which is used to motivate.

The Almighty is invoked, the power which pales the power of the enemy into insignificance "even if I am defeated there is still the hope that my justice will ultimately prevail because God’s will cannot be defeated".

Economic arguments alone forget what it is that moves the soul.

Just because a person can’t live without eating doesn’t mean we live to eat.

If the motivations of faith are opaque to ppl's imagination, just look at history and pay attention to what Muslims say and do, and what the US says and does. (And read this brilliant journalist from the Asia Times;

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html)

Essential to the faith in Islam is its eventual world domination, dar al harb must be converted to dar al islam (radically opposed to the Christian seperation of religion/politics.)

Islam has a holy book they believe was delivered to Mohammed by the Archangel Gabriel and that a copy exists in Heaven.

This ‘holy’ book and its explanatory Sunnahs are some of the most violent and repellent words committed to writing. The Qur’an tells Muslims to follow Mohammed’s example.

Mohammed’s example is to kill the infidel wherever they’re found, to break oaths when it suits them, to murder, rape and pillage in the name of Allah, and ensure that Muslims have political dominion over the world.

Examples of Muslims living out their faith is right before our eyes, in how they behave inside their own countries, and what they do to the so called enemies of Islam.

Why not take people at face value to begin with, why start here with a version of economic determinism.

Listen to the recordings of conversations between JFK then LBJ and McNamara try and find a conspiracy.

If you want to understand what the driving force of history is, pay attention to ultimate things as expressed by religion - the brute fact of death and our response to it
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Saturday, 28 January 2006 1:26:26 PM
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Part One

Pax Americana on the downgrade.

The US was so much honoured after WW2 with the advent and the oustanding success of its Marshall Plan mainly achieved by not destroying the culture and economies of either Germany nor Japan after they were defeated during WW2.

America is now detested by more than 70% of our globe, and is now at the cross-roads, even though the US was tantamount in saving the world from the blight of communism and the ensuing Cold War, ending in 1989.

While Britain has now admitted that her conquering of backward countries in the 19th century was blatant colonialism, the US has refused to admit that her present missile diplomacy is only the modern version of the former British gunboat diplomacy.

Missile diplomacy similar to the old gunboat diplomacy, does not mean that a military attack needs to happen forthwith, but simply the fear of attack as a school bully can force his or her will on a weaker person.

America with her enormous military power, believes she can easily press her diplomacy worldwide, as Condoleeza Rice has just expressed how the US needs many more diplomats where she terms are problem countries than in those that are friendly.

However America has not only inherited the respectful awe that Britain exuded over most of the world, but also is receiving more anger from countries that had already felt the effects of both British and European gunboat diplomacy.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 29 January 2006 1:08:08 PM
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Part Two
Indeed, it is incredible that the US seems so clueless about learning the lessons of history - more so with the persons running the White House at present. The mention of the upcoming plans of Condoleeza Rice is just one example, not even keeping such rhetoric behind closed doors, being just one expression of America’s lack of deep historical understanding, as many political philosophers have recently declared. US naivety in the declaration of the Project for the American 21st Century, like something high-school kids might think-up, as well as Regime Change in Iraq well before it did come about, and of course. now it is Iran’s turn, Iran’s new leader overdoing his rhetoric similar to the way the White-House spokes-persons still overdo theirs.

It was not so long ago that the US was priding itself on having got rid of all its left-wing worries in South America, but now it seems the US could hardly find one firm friend below its southern border.

In global capitalism the US also deserves as much contempt as the thinking world can give. The WTO mainly formed to give poorer nations a go against trade protection, yet the US, the King Pin of the WTO, along with other rich nations, is blatantly breaking the WTO lawful lynchpin, the abolition of trade protection. No worries that George W’ after he first entered the White House allowed 80 billion dollars in subsidies over the next ten years, especially effecting the huge MidWest where much of the world’s grain is grown. But much more handy for the Republican government, to favour the huge MidWest with ten years of ag-subsidies to guarantee the Republicans another term following the present one.

No need to say much more about why the US has lost its friendly way in the world - much of it sheer roguery and diplomatic incompetence.

George C, WA - Bushbred
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 29 January 2006 1:18:05 PM
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Interesting stuff !

Just a little note here:

Georges Sada, 2 star General, senior pilot in Sadams Air force, (is also a Christian) stated today in person: (not as in 'reported to have said')

1/ Sadaam did have WMD
2/ They were in Iraq till 2002
3/ They were used on Kurds and Shia
4/ 56 sorties of 747 and another aircraft shipped them to DAMASCUS prior to the invasion
5/ He knows the pilots of those flights personally.

Hmm I wonder what 'spin' the Anti Bush camp will put on this ? :)
I can guess...
-"He was paid to say it"
-"He lied outright"
-"He is saying it because he is 'Christian'"
-"The CIA actually turned him into an animatronic puppet and that (rather than he) was the speaker" :)

and similar fantasy land speculations.

F.H. as for joining together all those things mate.. I just used a simple story which illustrates a fundamental human truth. Not very complicated.

Re Armageddon... "Watch that space" :) But preferably, 'be ready' for when Christ comes it will be "As a thief in the night, when you least expect it".
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 29 January 2006 3:03:51 PM
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Orthodox/Right wing Jews now...thinking (?)

a) Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel
b) Most Palestinians 'voted' for them, hence are enemies in a military sense.
c) It is only a matter of 'time' before Hamas become more 'militant'.
d) 'c' above will depend on whether they receive support from Arab States financially.
e) If they manage to find funding, meaning they will not have to retreat from their policy of destruction of Israel then...
f) The total annihilation of the population of Gaza would be justified.
g) There is no reason, now that Hamas is in power to tread softly on the rebuilding of the Temple (Fow which stones and furniture have been prepared already) (if a Red Heifer without blemish is born)
h) Iran cuts off oil, Saudies follow suit .... polarization of the wold. China cannot stand by, and a 200 million man army is mobilized......

200million man army predicted. AD95

Rev 9:15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/china/doctrine/chinamil.htm

200million man army capability. AD2006

“China's standing armed force of some 2.8 million active soldiers in uniform is the largest military force in the world. Approximately 1 million reservists and some 15 million militia back them up. With a population of over 1.2 billion people, China also has a potential manpower base of another 200 million males fit for military service available at any time” -source “Federation of American Scientists

No matter what one thinks of the ‘Last Days’ scenarios and prophetic speculation, this one is now actually conceivable, probably for the first time in history.

No matter which way things turn out, perhaps we all need to examine very closely the forces at work in all this, and the least of our concerns are the USA... of far greater importance is "Islam" and how it is interpreted by those at the epicentre of all this.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 29 January 2006 3:09:27 PM
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I'm sympathetic BOAZ_David.

I have a sense of foreboding too.

Religious pluralism has dumbed ppl down in the west. We're a weak, decadent, pathetic culture now, ripe for the picking.

It is too late for Europe, I honestly believe that. They don't want to carry Christ's yoke, they want to give Mohammed's a try. And there will be much crying and gnashing of teeth. Islam will be the dominant religion in England by 2020!

I see blood, from those willing to defend Europe - but it is over populated with we who love life so much we are willing only to multiply our petit pleasures until death comes. We've given up Christ and replaced Him with nothing worth dying for, and nothing worth being born for apparently, according to fertility figures.

Europe has disgraced their ancestors, forsaken their duty to future generations. Forsaken Christ, for a prophet most Muslims don't even know about. They certainly haven't read Tabari or Bukhari or Muslim. If they did they wouldn't think he was so morally beautiful lol.

Our Father must be furious.

Who really wants to experience God's justice?

What a terrifying thing!

Look: either there is no God: or there is, if there is he is certainly able to do concrete historical things. So its out of Judaism,Christianity, or Islam. If anyone were to look closely enough. Islam would be rejected by almost any criteria. So you're left with the Mosaic Law or Christ.

The more I look the more I'm convinced Jesus really was who he said he was, the more I look the more I am repulsed by Mohammed.

And God's sovereignty in his own creation usurped isn't tolerated for long. We're all in trouble BOAZ_David.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:15:53 PM
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Cameron,

"The US soldiers don't divide treasures of the land they conquer"

You can't be serious.So what do you call oil, wheat and construction contracts awarded to US companies?

Martin Ibn ...,

Sounds like you are still comparing religions. Good luck finding a suitable one.

Peace,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 30 January 2006 5:41:32 AM
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This is why we're in trouble fellow human people are unable to do that.

Why refuse to apply your God given reason?

Why not judge ppl by how they behave?

Why not read what genius after genius has said about that luminous Nazarene.

If you will not compare religions you're, then you cannot worship God, for you are saying even if my religion is false I will still worship - that is idolatry. And if enough do that then there is huge trouble.

Eg most of the Western world and most of the Arab world.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Monday, 30 January 2006 6:52:28 AM
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Bushbred

Thank you again for your well reasoned, erudite and ON TOPIC post. I endorse your take on USA imperialism. It is not USA bashing to perceive clearly and write honestly on the truth of USA domination of world trade.

To BD, Martin and others who are limited to posts about religion there are many other threads which pertain to your arguments;

to reiterate this thread is about USA's dependence on military-industrial economy if you have a view on THIS TOPIC I would be interested in reading it.

However, as your posts consist of the same 'ad nauseum' discourse on your prefered religion versus anyone else's religion I politely request you refrain from further posts to this thread.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 30 January 2006 8:19:57 AM
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Scout,

The voice of reason as always.

Martin & Boaz,

A short story on basic human psychology: If I bought a Honda and I am happy with it, I won’t look and compare other cars every day. If I was in doubt about my choice, I will constantly talk, read and compare trying to convince myself & others why I am driving a Honda.

I noticed every thread on politics, economy or even taxes becomes another ‘my religion is better than yours’ or a way for you to justify your faith to yourselves and others. You won’t behave like you do now if your faith is real.

Can we try to stay on topic?
Posted by Fellow_Human, Monday, 30 January 2006 11:29:41 AM
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