The end will come in about 4,000,000,000 years when our Sun vaporizes the Earth as it expanse into a red giant. Long before the oceans would have boiled off and just about all life would have been distinguished with maybe a few extermephiles hanging on in the crust. The only after life for humanity is in the stars for man may be granted immortality but it will be by his own hand not through supernatural salvation.

Does it really matter?

So we have a Fundamentalist Christian who believes that everything in the Bible actually happened.
Your belief is not my belief, but I believe there is a God whoever she is and how black she is.

The end of the world.

Why do people worry about it, as long as it is in 100 years or greater, we will be all dead (or frozen) by then anyway.

Out of the countless generations past and future i would be surprised if our generation won the russion roulette and were greeted by the apocolypse, but obviuosly the writer had nothing to do and thought he would put this out there. If you wrote instead about paint drying, this is perhaps at least a learning experience somwehat for the reader.

If we spent more time being productive as a people and less time on things such as religous interpretation & trivia, I bet we would have a far more fruitful life, and actually leave something behind more than ideaology for our children.

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34); “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place” (Luke 21:32). “All these things” are a description and prediction of the end of the world.

Oops!! We're still waiting... could it be that JC was wrong? That the Bible is wrong? That it's all superstitious rubbish?

Over to the believers for a set of explanatory rationalisations. Please try to make them original.

some disjointed thoughts:

"We may abandon the notion that the improvement of the world is all down to us."

man, how fatalistic can you get?

well im not going to.

and if this is 'movement' is transforming the world.....then.. i dont know how to tell you this. but ah, .................are you sure its working? guess it must be, things have never been better right.

i wonder if there is any correlation between those quoted passages and what the insurgents in iraq are being told? "the nations of the world will end, in particular the one that happens to be occupying your country at the time".

how funny would it be if the minister for health, as a devout christian, shared sells's views on medicine? probably not that funny come to think of it.

reminds me of bill hicks:
"is anyone else here concerned that the man who has his finger on the little red button, believes that the rapture will take place in his life time? please lord, tell me to push the button, your servant is ready lord, just give me the word".

Thanks Peter for your comments. It is refeshing to read some senceable thoughts.
"Realist" made the following comment on your "sermon": If we spent more time being productive as a people and less time on things such as religous interpretation & trivia, I bet we would have a far more fruitful life, and actually leave something behind more than ideaology for our children.
The sentiments he/she put forward are precisely the reasons we have an unpleasant world to live in. If we reject the Prince of peace it is indeed presumptuous of us to expect a peaceful society to live in.
The world largly rejects Jesus and we can see the results.
Kind regards
Dave

Yes dave all the worlds ills are caused by non christians.
That would have to be the silliest post ever put on this site and there have been some doozies in the past.

"Apocalypse now" - should we really be taking this seriously, be alarmed? After all, it is not the end of the world! Not Ragnorak, not Gotterdammerung.
cheer up - it is nothing more than the "revelation of God's purpose". And if that is about to happen now, we might be enlightened about any number of variations from the thoughts that Sells has provided for us.
It all depends upon who/what/if any, your god or gods, happen to be. And may such diversity continue! Restless bedfellows within the ambit of Christianity, and of Islam, of Judaism; and the practitioners of Taoism, the Buddhists, Hindus, the Shinto, the quiet athiests: all have somewhat differing viewpoints relating to what might or might not be appropriate in regard to the supposed purposes of God or Gods.
Let us not be be unduly dogmatic about it. Australian society is a broad church, so to speak. And we are all entitled to our disparate points of view on what that purpose, if any, happens to be. Such views will range from the deadly serious, through the irreverent, to the downright humorous. The only ones likely to give rise to problems for society are the members of the first of those three groups.
I find it hard to believe that Sells' "friend of the sinners" really brought about the end of the world for the Trilobites. As the last of the little beasties - the end of 350 million years of lineage for its genus - gasped its last - would it's last thought, had it been aware of the situation, been "well I have had a good innings. What has been dished out for our mob has been better than for most"?
It is doubtful that Armageddon, God's purpose, had much to do with the perpetuation of Trilobites for such a long period. And even less so for human beings when their tenure on earth has been only a lousy couple of million years. Life processes will chug on regardless, long after "the end is nigh" has reached reality for humanity.

Be alert, not alarmed....

The sky is falling... the sky is falling!

Duck and cover! :O

It quacks me up that people as bright as Sells evidently is not only fall for this kind of duck's droppings, but also literally "preach" it.

'Nuff said, I reckon. It just encourages them.

From a distance this scenario makes me laugh. The black pots are calling the white kettle red, and the white kettle is calling the black pots green, metaphorically speaking.

Consider the content of the written article. Is It right or wrong, true or false? There are hundreds and thousands Christian denominations, sects, each with their own unique It, such that there is a set of Its numbered It one thru It infinity, only one of which is the true-it. The set of Its we will call BIG It. The big-it is the Bible and the true-it is the correct understanding or interpretation of the Bible. The big-it may be deemed true or false by an observer. In either case true-it remains true, the rest of the its remain false.

When you (Peter's opponents) rubbish Peter, is it Peter's It or BIG It you are having trouble with?

True-it can be determined legally, logically and mathematically. Once determined true-it constitutes the proof that big-it is true.

Daniel's chronological prophesies given more than 500 years before Christ and has been historically proven down to the time Napoleon put the Pope in prison, terminating the 1260 years of Papal Supremacy.

I tried to include a graph of Daniel's prophesy but it didn't work

Regards

It seems from the above that I have not got my point across. Apocalyptic in the bible is not about the end of the material world, the writers did not understand nature as a separate category. It was not until out fascination with the natural world that began in the 16th C that millenarianism, that the idea of the end of the world became the prevailing view. However, a reading of the texts reveals that the day of the Lord, or the advent of the kingdom of God in the New Testament was a socio-political reality. Because nature was not understood as a separate realm, nature too was included as in Romans 8.

Apocalyptic in the NT comes from the understanding that something happened when Christ was crucified that changed everything. It began with understanding of the individual and spread to the rest of society so that a new creation was born. The power of the event of the cross is similar to the power of any other historical event except for degree. Are we not formed by our history? The fact that my writing on apocalyptic is misinterpreted as a prediction about nature just reveals how natural science has taken over our thinking. We find that we are not able to think theologically because theology does not use the methods of natural science. This produces a poverty of thought that is reduced to mechanism

"Apocalyptic in the NT comes from the understanding that something happened when Christ was crucified that changed everything"

What happened was that a martyr was created, that's all. A man preached, he was persecuted he died. He had some good ideas, so did Buddha, Mohammed, Einstein, Plato - to name a few.

Sells you must have known that your comments would be deliberately misconstrued as the physical annihilation? An opportunity to cast aspersions on this forum is never rejected. I just wonder what the point of your article is?

Are you saying that a cataclysmic social event began at the death of Christ? Or are you saying there will be one soon?

Scout.
Both the judgment and hence the salvation of the world has already occurred with the event of the murder of Jesus. Matthew is right when he has signs of the end time appear immediately after the death on the cross (Matt. 27:45ff) Thus the end of a world, the world of human strife that is caused by our flight from the truth, has had notice that it may no longer hold sway. It is now under condemnation. Its continued existence in the world that we read about in the newspapers every day is only now an existence in the face of its already defeated condition. This is why eschatology is the centre of biblical texts, it describes an event that ferments in the history of the world. The Christian hope is that that ferment will never be extinguished. To understand this we must risk engagement with theology and risk that we might be pierced to the heart. It is only then that we find we are unable to talk about theology from a distance, we will become engaged and the consequences of that are fearful. That is why people lump Jesus in with all the others, to establish a cold and objective distance. Certainly that will keep us safe, but then, there is nothing safer than a corpse, we can expect nothing from it except that it will stink more.

Sells,

Though I usually consider your articles 'for catholics only' type of writings but thought I share an opinion on this one.

During my early studies of the Arabaham religions, they seen to have the 'end of day' and the resurrection all over since the early stories of Adam and Eve.

Taking science and stats into consideration, one cannot expect the earth to be around with 20 billion inhabitants warming up to 85 degrees temperature, rising desertation, increasing salt levels in the air and water, furthering lunar distance affecting gravity, moving under water earth plates causing increasing quakes, etc...its another 'logical' interpretation.

Hate to sound so realistic but I think you went a little too far this time:-)

SCOUT

It might be neccessary to clarify where Sells is coming from. (though coming from 'me' you might immediately think this is an 'attack' :)

Sells appears to hold that either

a)Christ did not rise literally from death
or
b) Even if he did, or not, it "doesn't matter" in terms of the 'faith lessons' we draw from the event.

Sells can correct me here, I welcome that.

I take a different position, 1Corinthians 15

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]:

-that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
-that he was buried,
-that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, -and that he appeared to

-Peter,
-and then to the Twelve.
-After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
-Then he appeared to James,
-then to all the apostles,
-and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

APOCALYPSE / END
Mark13
26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Clearly, the above did not happen in the lifetime of the early apostles. (their generation) So, some say
"Jesus was wrong" or..
"He was sincere, but misguided"

The simple solution would be to 're-arrange' the Bible to fit history but the Church did not do that.

Without going into a lengthy coverage of the 'Theories of last days', let me just conclude with this-
Pauls comment in his Corinthian letter:

"2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."

...Is meaningless without a 'real' literal resurrection to which he is testifying to. Following from this, 'are we ready' for when Christ does return ?

Sells, BD... er, yeah thanks. And the point of this article is?

Useful coments Boaz. The Scripture is clear if we are willing to see.
Thanks

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34); “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all has taken place” (Luke 21:32). “All these things” are a description and prediction of the end of the world.

I asked for an explanation of these texts and why, given that nearly 2000 years have passed without the world ending, we should not conclude that JC got it wrong. With the consequence, of course, that the Bible is riddled with errors and thinking based on the ignorance prevailing in the period over which it was written (say, 1000BC to 100AD, approx).

No reply from the believers. Question too hard, perhaps? I rest my case.

Part 1.
Mhoram

I may give you a different answer than Peter would. Because you ask the question sincerely I assume you will give the answer a intellectually honest appraisal. The question is not to hard for me. The answer may be too hard for you to understand. On the surface your question is similar to the policeman's question _ “have you stopped beating you wife, yes or no”? If you have not been bashing your wife, you are RS,all the question allows you to do is confess to being a wife beater. When a person learns new things these things have to be compatible with their knowledge base, assumptions, presumptions, etc., and you understand your questions in terms of yours. I understand your question in terms of my knowledge,assumptions, etc. What I am doing now is setting up a temporary knowledge base, assumption set, etc., which should enable us to communicate. Your use of the word 'believers' suggests you may be Muslim. If so then you will have been indoctrinated with a Muslim version of Christian knowledge. This would make my version more difficult to understand. Mohammed declared Jesus Christ apostate, ie., not the Christ and not the son of God. Christ declared Mohammed apostate by stating that the Law may not be changed. I accept Jesus Christ and His teachings but I regard the Muslim, Christian and Jewish religions all apostate. Still many may be saved because of Jesus Christ, the daily sacrifice and their circumcision which preceded their religions. What makes the Christian religion apostate, among many things, is instead of them saying, “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” , they say, “There is no other pair of names under heaven by which we may be saved, except Jesus and Paul. Without Paul there is no new covenant, there is still circumcision, Paul continually undermines the authority of Jesus and contradicts His teachings.

Part 2.
Mhoram

A simple answer to your question is:

One of the many prophesies Jesus fulfilled is that he would speak in parables. Jesus always spoke in parables except when He called his apostles aside and spoke to them personally. This is recorded in the Gospels.

Had you read the preceding verses you would have found the verses you quote are taken from parables and as such the time frames that you see are non-existent or could apply to any generation.

Another problem is with translation and interpretation. If explicit accuracy was required the Gospel would not have given in parables. The Gospel was given in parables to counter the letter of the Law syndrome.

Another translation that I have for Mat 24:34 is: Amen I say unto you. This race will not pass away, until all these things come to pass.

I do not know that term end of the world is in the bible. I am familiar with the terms 'time of the end' and 'end of time'. Daniel's chronological prophesies has the time of the end starting in 1844. The end of time is when Jesus Christ returns. Now the first resurrection takes place and they are raised up to be Christ in the air, and have eternal life. Then Christ destroys the rest of the human race with normal death and takes those of His kingdom to heaven for a thousand years. The earth is left desolate of God and with Satan left in house arrest on earth. Christ returns at the end of the thousand years with his kingdom. The second resurrection takes place and they receive the second death along with Satan. Christ continues with His kingdom on earth for eternity.

If you want to know more then read my book.

I am sorry Peter.

Goldbrick, you chose a very suitable name and what you wrote is very thick with words and thin with meaning. Very much like a golden-heired beauty.
It seems you also believe that you wrote the Bible. Now there is a true believer ladies and gentlemen because Goldbrick didn't write not near black enough for my belief in Gods.

Dear Scout

The 'meaning' of Peters article is this (as I understand it)

If you don't believe in a literal resurrection of Christ, then you must 're-construct' Christianity and 'hope' etc in terms of the 'here and now' rather than an afterlife, -appears to be what Sells has done.

He speaks of

<<The Christian hope lies neither in the extension of life on this earth via medical technology nor the extension of life after death in an “afterlife” but in the fulfillment of all things.>>

Well, I can agree with that to a point. But not with the idea that an 'afterlife' is not a vital part of our Christian hope. Perhaps Sells does believe in an afterlife, and a literally risen Christ but puts the emphasis on the 'here and now'.

I'm sure Sells will clarify this.

John 14
<<1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.>>

Hope that answers the question Scout. My prayer is that you and all here also will 'see' (God) the Father in Christ.

Thanks BD for your patience and input. However, I am still somewhat at a loss what the Christian belief in the apocalypse has for the greater community.

Sells article did make me think about the paucity of articles on this website from other faiths.

Is there a belief in apocalypses from others such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Wiccan or even Pagan? Or even a philosophical take on the need for religious beliefs.

Personally I am not too concerned about any imminent catastrophe - by the time the sun runs out of nukes the human race will be long gone. This is why I questioned the relevance of Sells article in the first place. I feel it would've have been more pertinent to a Christian website than here. Or if we are to expand our world views then this is why I am asking for input from other faiths.

This is an open forum isn't it?

Hi Scout,

In answer to a couple of your questions – yes, lots of other belief systems talk of the “end of the world”, and in many (not all) cases this is linked with the ushering in of a utopian new one. This is true not just of religions but of secular worldviews too – cosmologists’ exploding suns and collapsing universes, eco-apocalyptics’ fears of anihilation by over-population or greenhouse gases or over-consumption, Marxists’ longing for revolution to usher in the “dictatorship of the proletariat” and “withering away of the state”. It would be interesting to hear their perspectives, too, and to critique them as esctatology.

As this forum demonstrates, there is no agreement within Christianity on exactly what the coming of the kingdom of God means. Those of a fundamentalist bent take the apocalyptic writings as literal predictions of future historical and political events, and some see entering into God’s kingdom as meaning “pie in the sky when you die” – going to heaven after death as a reward for doing or believing the right thing while on earth. Liberals often see these things as metaphorical statements about how God wants the present world to be, and the role of Christians as being to work to achieve those goals as nearly as possible. Hence they often emphasise political, economic and social action now – charitable work, social justice campaigns, etc.

As I understand Sells’ argument, he takes neither of these views. The coming of the kingdom of God is not a future event or “the end of the world” as predicted by science or depicted in horror and disaster movies, nor a deterministic or progressive political agenda, but an action of God (not us) which has happened, is happening and will happen through and as a consequence of Christ’s crucifixion. This is not something we should embrace for fear of the end of the world or in the hope of a pleasant afterlife, or even with humanistic good intentions of improving people’s wellbeing, but because it is the most profoundly important fact about our human existence.

nice one Kenny

Hi Scout,

Re your question on apocalyptic views in Islamic religion, it is defined in our Holy scripture as a physical form: quakes, volcanos (referred to in the Holy Quran as 'smoke').

It is the last chapter following Jesus second return and 'reign of peace' over the earth for 7 years.

There is no evidence in our faith to support a matching view to what Sells thoughts on the Bible.

At the end of each Oor Ernie adventure in the Knockout comic, his phlegmatic North of England father would comment “Daft I call it!”

Well, Oor Sells, daft I call it! Or, as I put it in another post, blind faith, surely not leavened by your own experience.

I can’t go head-to-head on scripture, I’ll stick to “The Kingdom of Heaven lies within you.” Not above the clouds, not in a post-apocalyptic paradise, but here and now, in your own mind and body. The end of the world may not be nigh, but we never know when our own end will arrive. So if there is an afterlife, in whatever form, it’s as well to be prepared for it. And, strangely enough, the best preparation for death is learning how to live, here and now, from moment to moment, understanding reality as it manifests within you, changing, unsatisfactory, egoless. This understanding leads to a happy, harmonious life, and (though I’ve yet to test this) a happy, harmonious death.

There are various takes on any prospective afterlife. The Buddha taught that at the point when the mass of rapidly arising and decaying particles we call the body can no longer sustain life, then the rapidly arising and decaying mental phenomena – consciousness, perception, sensation and reaction – jump to a new physical location. The last mind-moment of this life is the first mind moment of the next. If that is correct, then having a mind filled with wisdom, love and compassion will be helpful at death - just as it is helpful in one's daily life. So the kingdom of heaven is truly within, and dependent on our efforts to realise it rather than “understanding ourselves as being caught up in a movement that has already been initiated in the cross of Christ and which has transformed and is transforming the world.”

Whether we have one life or many lives, it is self-realisation, self-reliance which will help us, not dependence on an external being, whether real or imagined.

This is a good article. Its meaning, though, will be beyond all but the spiritually (not religiously) inclined.

The great strength of Western christianity, unlike the religious conviction of more primitive people, has been learning how NOT to take the Bible literally. (Funamentalists excluded here!)

The end of the World is the end of our perception of how the world is not the physical end of the earth.

The return of Christ is not literal, its the return of "Christ consciousness" a more functional way based on love and not hate. Its an unstoppable wave which changes ones perception.

Religion, which is generally dysfunctional, has actually clouded this issue in the past.

Faustino,
"If that is correct, then having a mind filled with wisdom, love and compassion will be helpful at death - just as it is helpful in one's daily life."
Just thought I might project something - feel free to comment on it,
When we talk about wisdom and love etc. as in the attributes of God, these attributes are not distinct from God's essence. Rather, God <is> His attributes. Therefore to have your soul filled with wisdom, love etc. is to have this "[non-essential?] external being, whether real or imagined" in our lives.
You say that these things- wisdom, love etc.- are helpful. They are helpful. They are attributes of God (who is our help and salvation) and we also share these attributes to a degree (being made in His Image and Likeness).

Atman,
If the return of Christ is "not literal, but the return of 'Christ consciousness'" then why would Christ say, "Stay awake, then, for you do not know on what day your Lord will come." (Matt 24:42-43) and "So be alert, for the Son of Man will come at the hour you least expect." (Matt 24: 44-45) ?

GoldBrick

Thanks for the considered response...glad someone had the ticker to tackle the Q...

You have made a mistaken assumption, though. I am not a Muslim, I am an atheist. I was brought up RC, but became an agnostic at about 20; an atheist around 30. (The change was, oddly enough, due to reading Engels' devastating analysis of agnosticism... this was just about the only time Marxist writing ever convinced me of anything). My RC background means my copy of the Bible is the RSV Catholic edition published in 1966 - I've had it since school.

Your substantive response doesn't convince me, tho. If we excuse every contradiction, mistake or ambiguity in Scripture (anyone's Scripture) on the grounds that it's a parable, a poor translation, a later scribal interpolation or error, then we must accept that the texts we have are so corrupt (technically) as to be valueless when it comes to nitty-gritty Qs like that I posed. Or indeed others, eg, who was Cain's wife and where did she come from? If these are interpreted away, fundamentalists will object, which brings one up against the claim of each church or sect to have the only correct approach - all others are misguided at best, heretical at worst. Remember the filioque and the Orthodox church?

Actually my copy of the Bible is heavily footnoted with comments like: "other authorities have...", or "other early authorities omit...", or "other ancient authorities insert..." Makes one wonder just what's "inspired" and what's just textual whoopsies.

But thanks.

Jose,
The Bible was written many years after the death of Christ by far lesser beings. Sometimes they got it wrong! I don't take it all literally.

But, another way of reinterpreting those quotes is shown by this story: Someone asked a great spiritual leader "What about judgement Day?"
He said "Judgement Day is every day".

I think the quotes you brought forward mean be alert to your spiritual state all the time, not that Christ will appear bodily when you least expect it.

As one who has gained a degree in history and politics in his old age and still professes to be a liberal Christian, it was interesting to discover both in Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy and substantiatd in most University recommended Western World history books, that most of the eschatological Biblical teachings, were discarded at the end of the so-called Christian Dark Ages around 1200 AD, when St Thomas Aquinas became influenced by the writings of the French monk Peter Abelard, who had started the Search for Enquiry, after conversing with travelling Muslim scholars who were preaching the need to use Aristotlian reasoning as a balance with faith.

It was St Thomas who took up the challenge actually producing a massive thesis defining how Christian faith could be made more secure by using reason. The German philosopher Immanuel Kant added to this thesis 700 years later.

It is so interesting that it was Muslim scholars who passed the message to lift Christianity out of its earthly despair, as is often said by philosophers, leading onto the Rennaissance, and the later Enlightenment which gave us our democracy today.

The lesson could be that if our modern Christian churches as well as our right-wing Christian-backed governments accepted these historical truths it might help to create more harmony between Christianity and Islam, so much needed in this terror-crazed world today, in which modern Islam now needs help to get itself out of its own Dark Ages. Not that a great religion like Islam, needs to accept Western conditions to achieve it.

George C, WA - Bushbred

Mhoram

I am not finished yet.

I am stunned that after 700 words I have failed to convince you. If 14000 words would work then read my book.

Don't waste time on Cain's wife. Genesis was written by Mosses 2000 years after Cain's wife and he began with a laymen's explanation of creation, void of nitty gritties because they were either not known or not passed on.

I became aware early in my life that there are things in the universe that are incomprehensible to the human mind. God is another incomprehensible concept, but in Jesus Christ we have something comprehensible.

A Gnostic is one who believes that his salvation is achieved by the power of his own intellect. One might expect that a agnostic would be the opposite.

Agnosticism, atheistism and of course Marx are part of monkey theology. I do not believe you are an atheist. Think about it, you are either a descendant of the God of heaven and earth or a descendant of Gog the Ape. The choice is yours. The theory of evolution is also void of nitty gritties and has no function other than to oppose God.

I suggest you get yourself a non-Catholic bible, even a non-Catholic RSV would do.

A seed needs to germinate in your heart and be nourished by reading and hearing the word. You can kick start the process by watching 'THE PASSION', the Cds are readily available. What you will be watching is the daily sacrifice, performed once for all time. All the lambs sacrificed in the Hebrew sanctuaries were proxies for the Christ. Put yourself in the position of the thief on the cross, the right man in the right place at the right time. He found his God, had his repentance accepted, and his name entered into the little book of life.

Amen

Jose, the historical evidence is that Jesus epitomised those qualities of wisdom, love and compassion, whether or not he was divine; and yes, if there is a god he surely has these attributes. But in most of us, such qualities are masked by ignorance, greed, delusion, ego. My point is that it is our own responsibility, with our own efforts, to develop these qualities; it's in our own interests and in the interests of all other beings for us to do so. But it's not dependent on belief in God or interpretations of scriptures - we can argue points of scripture for ever, as this site demonstrates, and it tends to get in the way of actually working to purify ourselves.

Goldbrick incomprehensible to you maybe but not to humanity.
Religion was a candle to hold back the darkness now we have a new one called science and a much better one it is to. Stop playing with candles and step into the full light of day.

GoldBrick

You may not believe I'm an atheist, but I do and (for me) that's what counts. You are free to believe as you will, and I support your freedom.

Gnostics were (are) a peculiar theological group who under various guises (eg, Albigensians) suffered greatly at the hands of Christians claiming (as usual) a monopoly on Truth. I do not believe my salvation will come from my own intellect; I do not believe in "salvation" at all. When I die I will cease to exist. I don't like this much, but I am strong enough to accept an unpalatable truth and not clutch at the religious straw in hope of some form of disembodied postmortem existence.

What difference would a Protestant edition of the Bible make? Aside from various doctrinal differences - to me, as interesting as the old filioque debate, or the one about the angels and the pinhead - it's essentially the same thing. If my present Bible were damaged, I wd just grab the first one I saw in a bookshop as a repacement without fussing too much about what "brand" it was. Every educated westerner should own a Bible - it's a central cultural document, but so are, eg, the works of Shakespeare or the great Greek and Roman writers.

I broadly endorse Kenny's comment (with the addition that scientific method is sound and the way forward, but individual scientific practitioners are by no means infallible, or even always honest).

I thought the Bible said that Christ would come again when nobody expected it ("like a thief in the night") so obviously it won't be anytime soon since people seem to be expecting it.

Plus anyone who has read Douglas Adams knows that the end of the world will be a spectacular catering venture....

Atman,
Still not certain of your belief on this matter- do you believe that the world will end, but without Christ's return?
If you believe that the world will not end with Christ's return, what do you believe regarding the ressurection of the body?
If I've misenterpreted you and gone off on a random tangent, no worries.

Mhoram, Kenny and Pedant

In Australia we are still allowed to believe what we want, but for how long it will be interesting to see.

Mhoram will already know the following but others may not. The Catholic Bible has an introduction at the beginning of each book where the Catholic Church tells the reader what it is about and what it means. Also the Catholic Bible has at least five extra books in the Old Testament that the Protestants reject.

We are supposed to be discussing the Apocalypse. Pedant, the scriptures say, Beware, lest Christ comes upon those who belong to Him like a thief in the night, unexpectedly. The teaching is not to do with expectation, but rather to be ready in accordance with His overall instructions, regardless of when He comes. The parable of the 12 virgins also discusses this.

While you may find “end of the world” in some Bibles, this is a poor translation and reflects the beliefs of older translators. In most cases a better rendering is “end of the age”. One such end of the world took place during or as the great flood. But the planet survived and God made an everlasting covenant with Noah and his descendants, that the world would never be destroyed again.

You (atheists or monkeyians) really should be aware of unfulfilled prophesy, incase someone tries to self fulfill one. Now history, is the leopard like beast, the two horned beast, and we know the identity of the prostitute who rides on the scarlet coloured image of the beast. Next to be revealed by history is the identity of the scarlet coloured image of the beast. Prophesy tells us what this beast is going to do. And we can know that it will be the power ruling the world at the time of Christ's return. Those who support it will receive it's mark or Law in their forehead.

The most likely candidate is the scientific dictatorship or scientific community, who's routes can be traced back through communism, Fabianism to the Illuminati and then to the Roman Catholic Church.

cheers

Goldbrick,

Thanks for attempting to share knowledge, I do appreciate it.

However you have made many errors.

Where does the Bible say, "Beware, lest Christ comes upon those who belong to Him like a thief in the night, unexpectedly."?

Are you paraphrasing one of 2 Peter 3:10 ("But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare."), 1 Thessalonians 5:2 ("for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."), Revelations 3:3 (Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.) or Revelations 16:15 (Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.)? If so IMHO it's not a good paraphrase.

Further there is no "parable of the 12 virgins". Perhaps you mean "parable of the 10 virgins"?

You also say, "You (atheists or monkeyians) really should be aware of unfulfilled prophesy". I'm not an atheist or evolutionist. Monkeyian isn't even a word and if you are deliberately using monkeyian to insult evolutionists, well that reflects badly upon you.

I already know of those extra books in the Roman Catholic Bible to which you refer. The Apocrypha - biblical books included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Roman Catholic and Orthodox canon but considered non-canonical by Protestants because they're not part of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Although message is more important than grammar, as a pedant I can't go past your incorrect uses of "it's" and "who's". "It's" is a contraction of "it is" while "its" is the possessive pronoun of "it". Also, "who's" can be a contraction of "who is" or a contraction of "who has". "Whose" is the possessive form of "who".

Pedant

Part 1

I shouldn't have lumped you all together, it was a mistake, I was in a hurry.

You are well educated, darling, and it shows. I don't experience any shame or embarrassment regarding my level of literacy and I don't offer any excuse. I pay to have important documents edited. Your literacy hasn't helped you to understand the scriptures.

I am neither a Catholic or a Protestant. I would not waste time arguing the origins of God or the Holy Spirit. I accept no man as an authority representing God or in place of God, and I accept only Christ as teacher.

I feel justified mistaking you for an atheist. You took the side of an atheist against me. Myself being a disciple of Jesus Christ and coming in the name of the Lord.

If you have pedantry problems then I sympathize with you, young lady. But hey, take it easy, it is a phase we all go through.

I wasn't thinking too good the other other day and I can see why a evolutionist might be insulted, but because you missed the point I am surprised that you assume the evolutionists would be insulted. I think that you think that a black man would be insulted if called black, that a white man would be insulted if called white, and that a green man would be insulted if called green etc. How you have come through the education system not knowing the current beliefs of evolutionists is a mystery and a credit to you. I get evolution shoved up my nose every time I turn on the TV, so I should not have made the error I did. Evolutionists, who use scientific methods, not as strict as yours, claim to be descendants of Apes not monkeys. Monkeys, while having a common ancestor with Apes, belong to a different evolutionary line. Therefore delete “monkeyian”and insert “Apemanian”. Now if you say 'Apemanian' is not a word, I would like to know what perceived authority you say says so.

Pedant

Part 2

“Apeman' was a word used in relation to Tarzan, with evolutionary over/under tones. I am not suggesting that Tarzan is Gog. I believe that true believers of evolution will not be insulted by the tag, 'Apemanian' or even 'Tarzanian' but will enthusiastically take hold. Now they have a tangible platform on which to build a belief system. Instead of the 'is but is not', intangible, abstract theory, they now have a tangible identity. It is only a matter of time before the 'First Apemaniacal Church of Gog' appears, then the Second and then the Third and so on. No longer will they need to use Christian Churches as social refuges.

Apemanians will decide themselves what they do. But my new year resolution is to be 'to make “Apemanian” a worldwide household word'. The term 'Is there a monkey in the house', while technically incorrect will also attain common usage if I have my way. I will show the world that an uneducated man can make a difference.

Ode to Gog.

Our Gog who art in the jungle

Hollow is thy name

Thy jungle come

Let it be in the city as it is in the jungle

Give us our daily peanuts

Gog Gog Gog

Gog Gog Gog.

I do paraphrase verses from time to time, but not in a literal sense like you expect, but as an expression of my understanding. My response was my understanding of Mat 24., in reply to your non-quote of the Bible.

“I thought the Bible said that Christ would come again when nobody expected it ("like a thief in the night") so obviously it won't be anytime soon since people seem to be expecting it.

Your use of Rev 3:3 was unfortunate. Catholic translations aside,

Sardis, you use My name but you do not do the will of My Farther, or keep My perfect Law ( the fate of most is that their names are about to be blotted out of the book of life) wake up, because when you die or when I come it will be too late.

Goldbrick,

Thanks for unincluding me in that group. You've said such lovely things about me that I almost hate to point out that you're wrong again and just for you I've used a word that isn't real ("unincluding") even though to me, as a pedant, that's like fingernails on a blackboard.

Correct:
1. That's a fair paraphrase of Matthew 24:42-44, "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.", thanks for that clarification.

Actual wrong things:
1. Apemanian isn't a word (my authority: the dictionary) at best you could try building a case for it as a neologism.
2. Evolutionists don't claim that people are descendants of apes. They claim that people and apes are descended from a common ancestor ("the missing link"). (Of course there is no common ancestor in the fossil record but that's another argument to have with the evolutionists.)

Opinion things:
1. I don't see that I have taken the side of atheists against you if I point out things you say that aren't nice.
2. My direct quote "like a thief in the night" [the bit in direct quote marks funnily enough] is actually from 1 Thessalonians 5:2. So it's a little unfair to class it as a non-quote.
3. All the verses I quoted came from the New International Version of the Bible, if you think that's an "unfortunate" translation that's your prerogative but I quite like it.
4. I prefer to use the term "evolutionist" because it is a real word rather than make up (IMHO) silly names and chants.
5. I think my understanding of the Scriptures is just fine as between God and me (but I would say that, wouldn't I? Tee hee).

Goodbye and cheers :-)

Atman,
Just posting this a second time as you may have missed the first one (it's scrolling pretty fast).

Still not certain of your belief on this matter- do you believe that the world will end, but without Christ's return?

If you believe that the world will not end with Christ's return, what do you believe regarding the ressurection of the body?

If I've misenterpreted you and gone off on a random tangent, no worries.

Jose

After a long time I am back to tell you about the Catholic church dammed in prophesy.

The matter might be said to not be black and white. The evidence may not always stand up in a court of law. If you are looking for fine details give the local Seventh Day Adventist Pastor a call, Preferably an older pastor, they are usually easy going, and full of knowledge in these matters.

I am not an SDA, I should say.

The scope of this post is to small to treat this subject, and I am a little bit rusty.

Briefly, there are seven points given in Daniel that fit only the Roman Catholic Church.

In Revelation, from my poor memory, I think there are 10 points that identify only the Roman Catholic Church as the leopard like beast. Later the same 10 points are used to identify the scarlet coloured beast, which is the image of the leopard like beast, which has not been identified yet, but most probably exists today. When the image of the beast arrives the image of the beast and the beast co-exist and the worshiping of either earns the mark of the beast.

The image of the beast is described as 'is but is not'. To the apostle John, 2000 years ago, this could have meant 'secret' or 'covert'.

Isaac Newton wrote on mathematics, physics and astronomy, also determined that the leopard like beast was the Papacy, the church of Rome. Most of Isaac Newton's writings were on Christian matters.

Today, people in high places regard the Papacy as a world power equal to the USA.

A interesting quote, “Pius XII continued to support the U.S. Lobby advocating 'an atomic preventative war' .....U.S. Military considered dropping from one to six 31-kiloton bombs on Vietnam forces.... This scheme to use nuclear weapons against Vietnam was disclosed in the first vol. of a 17-volume official history of the Vietnam War published in 1984 by the Army's historical office.

Recommended, ask a SDA Pastor about historicist, futurist, Daniel's prophesies,and the Catholic Church dammed by prophecy.

1 December 2005

Peter Sellick has every right to go on preaching his sermons to the converted faithful. One problem
is though, in multicultural Australia, there will be those who choose to move outside this group.
Hybridisation in marriages, unless resolved carefully, has a potential to cause conflict, confusion
and anguish in resultant offspring. Failure to develop a healthy spiritual identity may germinate
the seeds of mental illness. This poses a severe responsibility on prospective parents and society.

Isaac Newton, who suffered from mental illness, was not wholly “right about gravity!” He had no idea
about electric phenomena which permeate the universe in a manner orthodox science has not yet come to terms with. Use of Newtonian mathematics to determine some gravitational issues have repeatedly
met irregularities to expected results.

As one sage thoughtfully posited, “Truth exists only for the individual as he himself produces it in
action”.

Thus, a holistic approach which coalesces science and religion, and mediated by logical common
sense, will produce a far more satisfying intellectual result than is readily available today.

It is futile to think catastrophic violence is not a fundamental aspect of life. Peter Sellick was born
from his mother in an act of violence. An eruptive volcano belches forth matter which enriches the
surrounding lands with high fertility. Plasmas racing through space fuel both a violent electric sun
and violent electric storms on earth!

Catastrophe does not necessarily mean the “end of the earth”. GoldBrick and Rhian think more
optimistically. “End of an age” can ultimately mean the beginning of a new flowering.

Very much is being said not just about texts in the Hebrew Bible, but global history that cries out
for a thorough reappraisal of the nature of God.

Tertullian surely got it wrong. Luther rebelled against the power and authority of Rome. The
English decided they also could travel their own path. There is still much to be achieved, and will
be if the next generation nurtures the gift to see life in new ways which so richly enhance mankind’s
endeavour to glorify the Great Architect of Life.

Shmuel