Ericc,

What you said makes sense - Science and Maths teachers should probably be paid more - but it will never happen because of the teachers federation.

there are far too many opportunities for science and maths graduates whereas many HSIE and English teachers fall into teaching, that has been my experience with both my teachers at high school and the people I know who are now teachers.

I mean why would you teach high school chemistry when you can earn 70,000 straight out of uni at BHP?

What is it about paying peanuts?

t.u.s.

I’m not certain that someone would need high qualifications in Maths to be able to teach maths to primary or even secondary school children, but someone would have to be a good teacher of maths.

I have worked in a number of factories, where a new station operator would be trained by an existing operator. Quite often a proficient operator would not make the best trainer, (ie. although they were proficient at carrying out the required tasks, they could not explain those tasks very well to the new recruit). And vice versa, where an operator who was not so sufficient at carrying out tasks, could be quite good at explaining those tasks to the new operator.

In the school area, the ability to teach maths would be the primary requirement, not having high qualifications in maths.

However, having said that, the teacher would still have to have an intrinsic interest in maths to be able to teach it well. I am not sure that this is occurring. About 4 out of 5 teachers in the primary school system are female, and a growing number in the secondary school system as well, and they may / may not have much interest in maths.

The following is from a March edition of Times magazine, with a cover story of “The Maths Myth”.

% of women in positions in the top 50 US research departments :-
Sociology 36%
Psychology 34%
Political Science 24% etc
.
.
Mathematics 8%
Mech. Engineering 7%
Physics 7 % etc

I don’t know how much interest many female teachers in our current system have in maths, science etc.

On re-reading my post, I may have sounded a bit patronising to people who currently teach maths and science.

I did not mean to say they were monkeys being paid peanuts but rather that too attract extra people to the profession, maybe a pay rise is in order, rather than losing these talented people to industry.

On Timkins point about ability to teach and proficiency in maths/science. I agree.

Some maths teachers who are whizzes with maths can find it hard to explain it to students who are not coming from the same level. One of the best teachers I had, had systems for explaining things in easy language and steps because that is how she had to learn it.

t.u.s

I agree with "The Usual Suspect" as well as strayan.
I just left school last year, and I'm in University now. I completed my schooling in Queensland, and let me tell you the mathematics "scheme" is terrible.

For those of you who don't know about it, it is this:
There are a number of "Objectives" you must demostrate while solving a problem. These can include such things as "Showing an understanding of a problem" or "demonstrating the ability to break down a problem". Some of them are even more vague than that. What is worse, each question is given a grade, not a mark.

Not only that, many teachers don't explain very well (probably because they don't really understand themselves). Not only that, they don't prescribe the most effective tool in math - Practice! You need to practice many questions, and many different kind of questions.

In Singapore, they have a great level of math amongst their children, and it's all due to practice. Asians and White people are just as smart as each other. What is needed is a big thick book stuffed with many questions for each and every child. That should solve the problem.

The Thieving Magpie
The situation of maths in education would just be another example of attempts to convert the whole education system into one of “soft science”

"I knew the answer, just couldn't understand the question"

An exercise in maths ( a “hard science”, that requires a definite answer to a given problem) is converted into an exercise in English (a “soft science”, where there can be much talk about it, but no definite answer need be given)

Gender and feminisation of the education system has much to do with it. There is variation within a gender, and also overlap between the genders, but in general terms, the male brain is more spatially orientated and goal orientated. When presented with a problem, males will want to try and solve the problem, with minimal talk.

The female brain is more verbally orientated, and less goal orientated. When presented with a problem, females will want to talk about the problem, share experiences and feelings, with minimal desire to solve the problem.

This is why women are much more likely to become involved in areas such as psychology, sociology (“soft sciences”), then they are to become involved in areas such as maths, engineering (“hard sciences”).

This feminisation of education into a “soft science” system advantages girls, disadvantages boys, but I also think it disadvantages Australian industry.

Companies will employ some people to be “arms and legs”, (eg manual labour type jobs), but they also employ other people to solve problems (eg engineers, programmers, managers etc). If the education system is converted into a “soft science” system, it is not training people to solve problems, and few companies will employ someone just to talk about a problem. Companies want people who can solve problems, not just talk about them.

Business will want 1 + 1 = 2
Not 1 + 1 = 2, after many hours have been spent talking about it in a group session.

Timkins, your gender theory is about a soft as the theories you seek to critisize.

This has got nothing to do to with the difference between the male and female brain Timkins.

It's about a system which is scared off by the very thought of practice. When my parents sent me to piano lessons when I was 6, I learnt very quickly that if you wanted to learn anything, you actually had to practice - carry the 1 - and I realised the same applied to any area of learning.

At school I needed a hard grade. I needed an percentage mark and I needed it to seperate me from the other students who had obviously done no practice. I needed to move on, but the system wouldn't let me. I will never forgive the system for that.