BOAZ_David,

Luke certainly does have 'perfect understanding' of the events as he shows knowledge of Mary's intimate physical cycle. You keep talking about 'context' so how about going as far as Chapter 2:21.

"And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel BEFORE he was conceived in the womb."

Think about it! I agree that Luke knows far more than most give him credit for and he does say that when the angel visited Mary she was a 'virgin' but...do I need to point out that every girl is a virgin BEFORE the first event? We know that Jesus was conceived AFTER the visitation so what's the problem? Let's indeed study the whole context, not just proof texts.

Oh, and what's a 'JW'? If it's a certain sect then you couldn't be more off the mark! Or perhaps you're referring to something else...

BD
One last note & I'm gone. Many of My fundamentalist friends often ask why it is that everyday people seem so resntful of christianity? If you've ever wondered that yourself there's been two book published, by christians, that gives a few examples of outrageous behaviour.
The first is "Ungodly Fear" by Stephen Parsons. it's about spiritual abuse in the churches. The second is called "Sex, Power & the Clergy" by Muriel Porter. It relates rather shocking stories of sexual abuse of women & children & the Clergy who covered it up. Up to advising women to have abortions so their favourite priest could stay in the parish, or threatening children with hellfire if they reported the sexual abuse they had suffered. I repeat this was not at the hands of the priest that had abused them but at the hands of higher clergy. Corrupt or what? I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just saying if you want to understand people's disappointment & anger with the churches then these books are a good place to start.
Bye for now guys.
Bosk

Nooooooot so fast Bosky :) c'mere u ! now sit down, and learn :)

As to the matters of sexual abuse, I TOTALLY AGREE.. with your point, and I hope you will agree with me when I say there is absolutely no connection between such evil behavior and the teachings and example of Christ and the apostles.

WOOPS...wait, there IS... its where all such behavior is condemned outright and to the uttermost. "Let there not even be a HINT of sexual immorality among you" that's pretty clear. So, the more important question is "What in the world were they thinking" ? (those who do these things) I suggest that while you will see the occasional example among evangelical churches, by far the most are in the large established beurocracy types, and that is an environment where you daily commmittment to Christ can slide and cease to determine your daily behaviour because its a 'job'.

The Cannon, Henry Chadwick. Yes, exactly, they formed the Canon in response to the likes of MARCION who were clearly heretics and if u read about him u will see why they acted when they did.

ID ? and Sternberg ? Its not 'his word' its 'actual events'
1/ He included the article
2/ He was hounded out.

ID is a 'theory' based on observation and induction.

VYNNIE.. I withdraw my JW remark :) no offence. You are making a very BIG assumption. The text also clearly states the relationship between the conception of the Messiah and the Holy Spirit. Yes, context is very important :)
Meet you in Acts chapter 1 and we will observe the dynamism of the Holy Spirit in changing the world by the power of the Word.

"When they saw the boldness of Peter and John they were amazed, and perceived that they had been with Jesus".... lets all seek that same experience of His love and enabling. Pagan Rome crumbled in 300 yrs to that Word without sword or army, what a privilege to share the same dynamic.

From Gospel James elder son of Joseph.

2 Mary was in the temple of the Lord ...: she received food from the hand of the teachers of the Lord. ...in those days Herod was King of Judea.
3 ... The high priest made a public order that all the virgins in the temple who had fulfilled their vows return home and according to the custom endeavour to be married. To this command all the virgins who had completed their vows readily obeyed, except Mary who resisted. She stated that she could not comply with this because her parents had made a lifelong vow, and beside she had vowed her virginity to the Lord. Which vow she resolved never to break by having sex with a man. This brought the High Priest into considerable difficulty, because he did not want to violate her vow, nor did he want to introduce a new custom into the temple. ..., that he might have their advice on how he should proceed on such a difficult case. There was assembled a council of the priests, he addressed it saying: Behold Mary is become twelve years old in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her lest she by her menstruation defile the sanctuary of the Lord?
4 And they said unto Zacharias of the division of Abijah the high priest: Thou stand over the altar of the Lord. Enter into the holy sanctuary and pray concerning her: ...
5 And the high priest took the ... judgment with the twelve bells and went in unto the Holy of Holies and prayed concerning her. Immediately the answer came that it could be as the prophet Isaiah said “To whom the virgin shall be given and betrothed, there shall come a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall spring out of its root, and the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of Wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of Counsel and Might and Piety, and the Spirit of the fear of the lord shall fill Him.

Cont: A husband chose for Mary

6 And the message from the Lord came saying to him: Zacharias, Zacharias, go forth and assemble them that are widowers of the people, and let them bring every man a rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be.
7 And the heralds went forth over all the country round about Judea, and the trumpet of the Lord sounded, and all men came quickly.
8 And Joseph cast down his hatchet and ran to meet them, and when they were gathered together they went to the high priest and took their rods with them.
9 And he took the rods of them all and went into the temple and prayed.
10 And when he had finished the prayer he took the rods and went forth and gave them back to them: and there was no sign upon them.
11 But Joseph received the last rod: and lo, a dove came forth and flew upon the head of Joseph.
12 And the priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her for thyself.
13 And Joseph refused, saying: I have sons, and I am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel.
...16 And Joseph was afraid, and took her to keep her for himself. And Joseph said unto Mary: Lo, I have received thee out of the temple of the Lord: and now do I leave thee in my house, and I go away to build my buildings and I will come again unto thee. The Lord shall watch over thee.

Continued later:

Sells, you wrote "Right from the earliest writings of Paul we have very sophisticated and developed theology".
Yes, all based upon Paul's understanding of the Tanakh.
Paul was the founder of what developed into modern Christianity. We can say with certainty that over the years other influences have permeated the Christian religion, much of it pagan that fused into Christianity through Christian dogma and doctrine, such as virgin birth, original sin, transubstantiation, and trinitarian formulations; these having no basis in scripture.
To ascribe to Paul the title, “founder of Christianity”, paradoxically presents Christians with a dilemma. Paul’s theology frequently contradicts that of Jesus.
This inability to recognise New Testament contradictions of the Old Testament comes from the fact that Christians grew up as “New Testament Christians” instead of “Old Testament Christians” by not recognising the source of Jesus’ scriptural authority – the Old Testament.
Christianity is an amalgam of Jewish, pagan, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Platonic ideas, mixed he majority vote decisions of numerous councils which determined the nature of Jesus, into organised, institutionalised religion falsely claiming to revolve around a Jewish messiah over which they profess exclusive rights.
"The historical development of christianity took off among the Jews and then the gentiles"
'Christianity' never took off amongst the Jews. After his murder a Jesus movement began soon after - as a sect within Judaism - which was eventually overwhelmed by gentile Christians towards the end of the first century CE. The Jewish remnants were excommunicated from the Temple by the Jewish religious establishment, the same religious establishment who Jesus denounced.
The Jewish followers of Jesus were never Christian but members of the Temple congregation until their excommunication. They disappeared from history not long after this.
Over a relatively short period of time the centre of the Jesus movement - Jerusalem - was replaced by Rome, and the message of Jesus, maintained by his close disciples after his death through this Jewish sect, led by James, Peter and John, was replaced by that of Paul.