kalalli, though provoking response about "tribal" support for sports etc. You raise some really good points.

In regard to your comments about "equal opportunity" and "affirmative action" I'd like to toss my two cents in. Firstly I don't think that they are the same thing. I can see how some would consider them to be but don't buy it myself. My concern about affirmative action is that it in effect discrimates against individuals based on perceptions about a group regardless of the particular circumstances of the individual. Maybe that is great if you think in terms of averages but often not fair at the individual level.

In my view stereotypes are generally based around perceptions about averages for a group. Racism and "affirmative action" can unfairly hurt those who do not fit the stereotype for their group.

I'm not sure how we should address the consequences of long term disadvantage for one group but do believe that we need to take great care when the solution seems to be techniques which disadvantage those who may not have been advantaged by the original inequity (and who may have been disadvantaged in other ways).

Thanks for your comments, Kallali - totally agree. Wish I could have expressed myself as well as you did.

Robert, your concerns are really important because indeed not everyone in any one group is disadvantaged/advantaged according to the 'group norm'. Having worked in areas to do with Indigenous policy I am not aware of any assistance/affirmative action measures that do not have some kind of built in assessment mechanisms for identifying when a person qualifies for that assistance/action. I consider myself to be priveleged and as such wouldn't qualify and have never wanted to apply for extra assistance in education, health services, employment opportunites, for example - but I see the need for that extra assistance to be there, not only for Indigenous people but for all those who are disadvantaged. My concern is that when any kind of extra assistance or affirmative action is targeted towards Indigenous people it is highly scrutinised and criticised as 'reverse racism' and in the meantime other forms of social welfare and affirmative action targeting other Australians continue without this level of scrutiny. I guess I wonder why is offering affirmative action measures to Indigenous people in particular so controversial...is it because of that R word?

Aden, thank you for your article. I found it very thought provoking. I have not read Hagan's book. I will be purchasing it as soon as I can.

I cannot add to the debate. I do not know enough. I know how to get emotional about issues (as a very strong supporter of people of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander heritage) but that would do little to add substance to that which has already been posted.

Katalli, I found your posts very interesting - and balanced.

Thank you

Cara, your last post is exactly the reason why we should not treat anyone differently.

There are many aborigines not living in poverty or squalor - it is not a racial thing - it is a socioeconomic thing.

There should be no differentiation based on colour or culture. Just all based on means tested.

When I was at school I knew two kids who lived next door to each other - one was Anglo, one was indigenous. their circumstances were almost identical (except the indigenous family earned slightly more). Who got the most assistance from the government - the kid getting abstudy.
Now I don't know what this extra money was for. Perhaps it was to save up for a rainy day when the evil white society of Australia was racist to the indigenous student and they needed an extra helping hand.

Pity the money was used to buy luxury goods such as brand sneakers or tracksuits or an extra day of buying lunch rather than bringing it from home every week.

Either way, it had nothing to do with economics it was race based when in reality in a lot of suburban Australia there is no difference between low income families.

Go out to a place like Wilcannia - the destitution there is not racial it is economic with plenty of white people living in squalor as well because they rely too much on welfare.

Its the P word people - poverty.

t.u.

intergenerational poverty and welfare dependancy is not solely an aboriginal issue but the underlying causes of why a larger percentage of aboriginal families/communities are poor relates back to past practices and benign yet destructive policies which created inequalities that were not in favour of aboriginal people. the same cannot be said for those poorer white families/communities.

those inequalities were the primary reason for the inception of equity and access programs that have provided many aboriginal people the opportunity to get their education and get good jobs and that opened the way for increased home ownership by aboriginal people.

those inequalities were not an inhibiting factor for non-aboriginal people to make their lives better, their chance at making better changes for themselves have always been on offer to those who wish to have a go at it.

so yes intergenerational poverty is not racist, but lets say that an aboriginal boy/girl from wilcania and a non-aboriginal boy/girl from wilcania go for the same job, both have the same work experience for the job, which one is more likely to get the job over the other one?

Seems to me that the forum is going over ground which has been done to death over decades. That's not to say that the issues/views aren't important, or that the debate shouldn't happen. However, I'm interested to know what you great minds think about the Toowoomba Rugby League bosses using the word "Nigger" on a grandstand sign. Don't you think it matters?