How do we arrive at a 'true' value for the environment when the value system is derived from what self-interested individuals determine is important? When the value is determined by the economists and the free-market (in Jennifer's ideal world) then the warm-and-fuzzies, revenue from timber and Quensland cane growers become most important. Timkins is leaning in this direction with his gross-nature-product so while we're here we should start asking the koalas and the barking owls about their annual profits for the last year and strategic direction for the next. In other words, lets just corporatise the environment.

The greenies are onto something when they start talking about the environment being part of 'us' and about how it makes them 'feel'. It's not biblical, radical, or god-bothering stuff but maybe something we've simply forgotten how to value from within our urban jungles.

Audrey, I absolutely agree that we have strayed a long way from being in harmony with the earth. Problem is, there isn't an easy way to reverse the damage we have caused over the last couple of centuries or so, without substantial change to our concepts of "civilization".

We have to face reality at some point, and if that means making a choice between the survival of fluffy owls (or whatever) and the continuation of the human race, I know which one will get the vote.

Audrey
What is meant by Gross Nature Product is the “amount” of natural flora and fauna that is in an environment. The term was originally developed by environment researchers in India who found a direct relationship between the degradation of an environment, and the standard of living of the people who lived in that area. By improving the environment and bringing it back towards a more natural environment, it also increased the wealth and standard of living of the local people, so it became a win / win situation all round.

With a gradual decline in commodity prices for some of our agricultural products, there would be a good case for converting certain farm land back into native bushland, rather than begin to subsidise unviable farms.

Pericles Do you really see emotional environmentalism as leading to a choice between barking owls and human survival? Perhaps a more rational reality is that it will involve a lowering of our economic aspirations in favour of the barking owls and even the ugly little bugs that stink and bite. I'm ready to make that choice.

I would like to see a win/win approach combined with a science based policy instead of the screw you its the environment or its jobs stance.

People like Amory Lovins at the Rocky Mountain Institute and the Natural Capital concept have already been developed, it just takes some vision, honesty and common sense to take us there.(sorry I also forgot the public and political will)

But I can now see why places like Easter Island went under, not only do you need the vision to see what we have to do to have a life in the future, but also the honesty to see what we are doing to the environment and acknowledge any harm we are currently doing.

Which unfortunately, is sorely lacking with many from the pro-business lobby who would rather dispute the work of the scientists with their own extreme minority views than look at solutions and working with the scientists.

So Jennifer when you can start calling a spade a spade and accepting the work of mainstream scientists like those at the CSIRO I’ll believe you have accepted science based environmentalism and not that this just another cheap political ploy

The work of the Lovinses is really amazing stuff. If no one knows what we're talking about, go to http://www.natcap.org/ and download all the chapters from their book "Natural Capitalism". The first two or three chapters are generally doom and gloom statistics, but the rest of the book is a really inspiring, exciting account of how being environmentally friendly *will* help your business's bottom line, along with plenty of examples and success stories from the real world.

As for evidence based environmentalism, well I'm all for it in theory but my cynical side suspects this may be a bit of green bashing in disguise. But as Natural Capitalism demonstrates, environmentalism and business concerns need not be on opposing sides.