Priscillian implies that those who undertook officer training at Scheyville lacked his moral, political courage and his independence of thought. Fine, whatever.
He also leaves the impression that selection for officer training was as easy as signing a form. Once again, fine whatever.
According to him graduates were 'dull, insensitive conservative dorks'. Yeah, okay. Whatever gets you through the night Priscillian.
He also makes the allegation that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm happy to let the content of my article stand against the content of his posts anyday.
Suffice to say, given the breathtaking arrogance and ignorance of the above posts this discussion is completely and utterly pointless.

Pricillian and Xena,

At the outset I have to admit...I wasn't there either. However, as a former member of the military and graduate of the Royal Military College I feel my opinion is atleast worthy of some consideration.

With respect, Pricillian and Xena, you seem to have missed the point of Stephen's article. As I read the article, Stephen's point is twofold, as follows:

1. if Scheyville was a sinecure for privileged young men during the American incarnation of the ongoing Vietnam conflict...then it was a pretty damned uncomfortable one; and

2. whether or not you agree with Australia's involvement in he US led Vietnam War...it left atleast one positive legacy in Australia. Namely, the products of Scheyville that Stephen refers to.

Pricillian...i agree that the men Stephen describes are not poets, actors, dancers etc. But just because Scheyville didn't produce great "artists" for want of a better term does not mean that it hasn't contributed to other facets of Australian society. Just as institutions such NIDA and many of the Universities have contributed to the Arts.

Pricillian, I admire your moral and political courage both in relation to your service and to your views that you presently convey. However, I feel it is hypocritical of you to deride Stephen Barton as as a 'rugby player' simply because his views differ from yours. Paradoxically, the military applies a similar type of stereotyping.

Stephen may well have it wrong but cheap name-calling will not make it right.

Danny

All fair comments Danny but my quip about Stephen looking like a rugby player was because he does. I was not stereotyping or saying he behaved like one or sounded like one, he just simply looks like one. This was not "name calling" just an unrelated observation said for the amusement of Di. Sorry if it wasn't funny, I'll try harder.
I am not convinced Scheyville had any positive legacy. There is no evidence from Stephen's article that the experience of these men at Scheyville had any positive effect on their later lives. In fact maybe the converse is true. Scheyville was not Duntroon it was a crude machine for turning out short term first Lieutenants and the training regime apparently was not any more difficult than say, Canungra jungle training where I spend far too much of my life.

I was explaining that the "filter" effect of the place was sure to produce fine upstading members of the conservative establishment....and that is what it did.
Did this period have any positive effect on anybody who was involved? My whole 2 years was spend counting down the days until discharge, a hippy in uniform........not a positive experience.

Recently I had staying in my house a friend of my wife from Hue in Vietnam (the ancient historical capital flattened by the Americans). This is the reason I refer to the war as the "American war" because this is what the Vietnamese call it. After the stories she told me I wanted to hang my head in shame. She had an uncle killed, her father is permanently disabled and a number of relatives suffer the effects of Agent Orange. The suffering of the Vietnamese people due to America and its allies causes me to get a little prickly when somebody attempte to "revise" history. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with the Australian Army only the lying politicians that gave it orders. Instead of Stephen crowing about legacy of Scheyville he should be reminding us of the tragic legacy we left behind in that unfortunate country.

I get the feeling that we are on the same team Pricillian. Albeit a generation apart and as such I dont have the benefit of your experience.

Whilst, I dont wish to continually argue the point on behalf of someone else whose intentions I cannot be certain of...I still think you have missed the point of Stephen's article.

As I read it, it wasn't written to support the decisions to commit troops to the conflict but was rather a comment on the postive products of one small institution created within the context of a much wider issue...Now, I concede that you aren't convinced that an institution which contributed so many men to the "conservative establishment" probably shouldn't be reffered to as a positive legacy. But if there weren't any conservatives...Who would you engage in debate Pricillian? Me?...I think that would be boring.

No one (even Stephen) can refute the devastating effects that decades of conflict had on Vietnam and its people. But that was hardly Barton's point.

Danny, Of course you are right.
I'm just a bitter middle-aged "Grumpy old Man".
just a parting anecdote:-
Australia withdrew the troops in 1972 and I was sent to Watsonia barracks for discharge. There were guys there that had had it tough. Nobody told stories, discussed the war or the politics. We just talked about what we were going to do when we "got out".
The big day came. A group of us was called to the pay office. The officer behind the desk stamped my pay book, I signed something, he gave me some cash and said "next". I stepped aside for the next guy not knowing what to do. "What do I do now sir?" I asked. "Just piss off", he said, "you've been discharged"
I wandered down past the gaurdhouse onto Greensborough road and stepped into the street. As I walked on to the station It stuck me.

No "Thanks digger, you've done a good job", No prime minister with an Akubra hat, no brass band, no speech....nothing.

They did give me a little medal however. A few years ago I got it out of its box for the first time and proudly showed it to my mother. "What did you do to deserve that?" she asked.

I wish people who weren't there would get their facts straight. I am a Scheyville graduate who only completed year 11 prior to call up. The course was 154 days not 90. The so called "bastardization" was minimal and a very minor part of proceedings which hardly bothered anyone, but boy do the detractors and lefties seize on it and beat it up.
I too went to Canungra and its silly to try and compare the two, they as different as apples and oranges.

I have lived a very full life and I have to say the Scheyville experience was the most well organized and best run course (civilian or military) that I have ever been involved in. I reagard the benefits to myself as invaluable.

I have heard comments like Pricilians before. Always seem to be made by "couldabeens " who either failed the Scheyville entrance tests or made it into the course and failed to complete it. They all have the same story "coulda made it, but I really didn't want to"

It never ceases to amaze me how much people that weren't there seem to think they know.