& All of this occurred "out of thin air & had nothing to do with US Foreign policy". I have a Harbour Bridge to sell to anyone who follows this line of thought.
There is a great correlation between the Syrian Occupation of Lebanon & The Israeli Occupation of Gaza & The West Bank. Lebanon & Israel came into conflict after Syria allowed Hezbellah & the PLO to attack Israel form Lebanese territory, then used the predicted Israli intervention to justify their occupation of the country.
Most people aren't even aware of this "occupation" due to "occidentalists & anti semite" propoganda, which has fostered a belive that the only illegal occupation in the Middle East has been perpetrated by Israel.
The same attitude was displayed regarding the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in that not one Middle Eastern country objected to the Soviet Invasion (Bar Israel, of course). [read Bernard Lewis's The Crises Of Islam Ch6 "Satan & The Soviets"].

To hear talk about Syria being in violation of UN resolutions without mention of the fact Israel has occupied Syrian territory for almost 40 years in defiance of the UN, is pure propaganda.

In fact the entire article never mentioned Israel once! This is willfully ignoring a bull in a china shop.

Why can Israel do as it pleases while the rest of the world is suppose to abide by the law?

Maybe I'm being too harsh. I notice Leanne Piggott works at USyd. With the lack of permanent tenure and limited opportunities for promotion, perhaps I wouldn't offend the powerful Jewish lobby either (ashame about acedemic freedom though).

Josh, read the article again, it was about SYRIA, not Israel!!

Why should any discussion about the Middle East be qualified about a discussion about Isreal.

[Deleted for bad language].

JOSH,

When the UN Partitioned Palestine in 1948 & created BOTH THE STATE OF ISRAEL & PALESTINE, One side accepted the UN's decision, the other declared war & invaded! & have carried on the same way ever since. The same team that CHOSE THE PATH OF WAR, now uses the very same UN Resolutions to justify their actions.
There was a UN Resolution that preceeded the 1967 War. The Palestinians ignored it, yet you expect Israel to respect the UN resolution but don't apply the same measure of rule to the Palestinians.
The Palestinian people supported Germany in both World Wars, yet cry 'colonialism' by the West at every given oppurtunity.
I once had to explain to an Iraqi that the 'Ottoman Empire' was colonialism. To take it a step further, I then had to explain why it was legal for Britian to partition Palestine in 1920's...THE ARABS WERE THE KAISERS ALLIES JOSH. They lost the War, therefore they & their allies lose their territories.

Anyhow Josh, the big one for you now mate.
"What would happen to the land tenure question Palestine if we simply applied the Australia Native Title Act to solve the problem".....
Bye Bye Arabs. The Jewish artifacts lie deepest in the strata. Alasqa mosque in built ON TOP OF the temple of Jerusalem.

[Deleted for flaming].

A discussion of Syria has quickly become discussion of Israel. I'd like to consider a different issue. I think Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, the Gulf states, Saudi Arabia and Jordan are all relics, mostly inventions of the colonial powers and are simply the result of the carve up initiated during the Paris treaties in 1919. They should all go. Why hang onto an artificial state like Iraq? Why can they all be amalgamated into one large Arab state? The reason is of course that the various dictatorships that run these relics would oppose that to the death. Nonetheless, a revolution in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere would rid the world of these corrupt leftovers and pave the way for Arab prosperity. That prosperity for ALL Arabs - not just the elites.

A democratic, pan-Arab state would also be in a position to tell the US and other interfering powers to go to hell. Now, I'm realistic enough to know this won't happen anytime soon. But then, recent history shows that some things we thought would never happen actually happened sooner than we thought.

The 'Country' of Syria is mentioned constantly during the campaign of 1096 - 99 during the Crusade of Saint-Gilles. As too is Egypt. Agree except for Whabbism.
The official religion of Saudi Arabia, & the reason why democracy must go to war with this perversion of Islam.

Robert,

Any discussion of the Middle East MUST contain a discussion of Israel because Israel has it's grubby paws all over the region.

Israel is an aberration, a nasty festering blight on humanity that has proved a menance to regional stability and world peace.

And about the "FW" part. Does your mother know you use that sort of language? Shame on you! In any case, if you keep it up I might have to tell you what I really think about Israel :)

Josh in you post u write: "...Israel has it's grubby paws all over the region." and you state that "Israel is an aberration, a nasty festering blight on humanity that has proved a menance to regional stability and world peace."

Bigotry ate its worst.

And my mum does know I use language such as that, expecially in the direction of bigots like you.

Administrator. I get flamed for stating the obvious.... & Josh gets away with this ANTISEMETIC CRAP.

What on Earth is going on here Graham?

Sayeret,

Unlike the Israelis I'm against violence. I've never assaulted a sinlge person much less invaded, subjugated and brutally occuped another people (in defiance of the UN and world opinion) all because I think I'm part of the 'chosen people'.

Like I've said before, if this makes me anti-semitic then I'm proud to be anti-semitic.

The word's been so over used it means nothing anyway....

Josh,

It was world opinion that created the State of Israel.

You may not have invaded another country but similarly you hopefully don't have neighbours whose publicly-stated goal is your total destruction.

It always amazes me that people like Josh can run around telling us how peaceful they are and then celebrate in private when some Israelis get blown up. It's also incredible that this tiny little bigot is proud to tell all and sundry that he hates Jewish people! (All in the name of peace and tolerance you understand!)

Josh, you are either ten years old, or an idiot. Probably both.

Bozzie,

You make me laugh :)

"It was world opinion that created Israel"

A half-truth. World opinion through the UN partioned Palestine with the explicit aim of creating both an Israeli AND a Palestanian state. More than 50 years later and we're still waiting for a Palestinian state.

"You may not have invaded another country but similarly you hopefully don't have neighbours whose publicly-stated goal is your total destruction."

Poor Israel. The only country in the region armed with nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, is threatened with destruction by poorly trained, poorly equipped and morosely led Arab armies. After the recent display by Sadaam's army I'm sure Israeli leaders would be quaking in their boots :) But of course we'll never hear about that. We'll continue to hear hysterical propaganda from apologists like you.

"It always amazes me that people like Josh can run around telling us how peaceful they are and then celebrate in private when some Israelis get blown up.

Where did I say that? More than three times as many Palestinians, most of them children, have been killed by Israel than Israelis killed by Palestinians. It's not that the Palestianians don't commit crimes; it's that the state of Israel commits much greater ones. It must be hard for the Israelis to regard all human life as equal (being the chosen people and all) but they could do a much better job at pretending.

"It's also incredible that this tiny little bigot is proud to tell all and sundry that he hates Jewish people..."

What sort of bigot am I? A tiny little one! Well, that's alright then :) But seriously, you really need to read first, post later. I never said I hate Jewish people. I inferred that anyone who opposes the Israeli occupation is accussed of anti-semitism, so if opposing occupation is anti-semetic then yes I'm proud to be anti-semetic. It has nothing to do with hating Jews.

You are so blinded by a warped sense of reality that as soon as someone questions it you lash out with hate. You are the bigot not me.

Josh, the whole tone of your posts says it all. You freely admit to being an anti-Semite, and then you back away. Which one is it? Sure you can criticize Israel without hating Jews, but with you Josh, I’m not sure which comes first - your dislike of Jews or your dislike of Jewish actions in the Middle East. I’m sure both feed off the other.

Believe it or not, I’m on the side of the Palestinian people. They were betrayed by all and sundry back in 1947 and were forcibly removed from their homes and herded into camps where many are still living. It was a disgraceful act that all involved should be ashamed of. But any analysis of the events must take into account the Jewish mindset of the time. They had just lived through the horrors of Nazi Germany which was the culmination of literally thousands of years of persecution. The chance to have a homeland where they could control their own destiny, and be safe, especially in the light of recent history, is understandable.

The subsequent action of the Arabs is also understandable but the cycle must be broken if both sides really want peace. Hopefully with the new Palestinian leadership some progress can be made.

You’ve got to make up your mind what is more important Josh – peace in the Middle East, or seeing Israel gets their “come-uppance”. An answer to this question might also answer the question of your anti-Semitism as well.

Josh,

The Jewish relics lie beneath the Arab relics.
How on Earth can you say the Jews have no rights?
I bet you bleat on about how us Aussies invaded in 1788. Use the same logic in the Middle East & you cannot deny Israel.
Or what that just expose your hypocrasy.

I think that Josh should go to Palestinian websites (with no Jewish connection) to find that according to the British census of 1922 there were 700,000 in all of Palestine, including today's Jordan ... ie, even very generously, no more than 250,000 on the other 20%. Again, non-Jewish sources, the UN, and we find that in 1947 local Arabs owned all of 3.9% of the territory. Given that in 1948, and to this day, Arabs own 3.3% of Israel, it takes no more than 2nd grade arithmetic to realise that there was no significant dispossession of "Palestinians". Further, given that 650,000 left in 1948 (820,000 according to Palestinians) using the same level of arithmetic we arrive at the inescapable conclusion that the bulk of what is laughingly called "Palestinians" arrived from surrounding countries during the mandate period looking for work. Further, the arithmetic tells us, the only REAL Palestinians, by and large, stayed to become Israel's current Arab population.

During the British Mandate, Arabs adamently refused to be called "Palestinian" so in ID papers of that period only Jews were inscribed as "Palestinian" with Arab IDs identifying them as "Arab"... so much for the myth of the centuries old Palestinian nation.

I think Josh would do better to consider why "Palestinian refugees" are refugees at all when living amongst their own brethren in what is slated to be their own state. Why would you keep your own people in the squalor of refugee camps in your own country? Israel is now abandoning lots of excellent housing in Gaza, with the suggestion that it be used to house "refugees" and get them out of the squalour of the camps ... does anyone believe that will happen?

cheers,

Mo

Sayeret asks me why "[He] get[s] flamed for stating the obvious.... & Josh gets away with this ANTISEMETIC CRAP."

Well, I agree that the posts are fairly robust, but it is sometimes difficult to draw the line between "robust" and "flaming". I don't think he has said anything that is not mainstream in some parts of our society's discourse. It is not anti-semitic - not as far as I have seen. To be anti-semitic it would have to attribute something bad to Jews per se, not just to the state of Israel.

I can understand why feelings are aroused on this issue, but it is difficult to have a discussion on it without that happening. I've deleted the "FW", and Roberto is suspended for a week.

Graham

robertomelbourne and co,

When I linked Israel to Syria you responded with the usual hysterics about it has nothing to do with Israel. I hope you were watching Lateline last night. I quote an exchange between Martin Indyk, the former US Ambassador to Israel and Tony Jones:

"TONY JONES: But the United States, Washington, has to be extremely careful about Lebanon, doesn't it, because it's here that they could find themselves in a proxy war with Iran and/or Syria?

MARTIN INDYK: Yes, I think that's a very good point. It's very important to connect the dots between Lebanon, Syria, Hezbollah, Iran and Israeli-Palestinian issues...."

So the former US Ambassador can admit a link between the issues but Robert from Melbourne and sloppy intellectuals from USyd can't. I wonder who has the most credibility?

bozzie,

I never backed away from anything. Anyone who opposes the Israeli occupation is labelled anti-Semitic so why not recognise that historical anti-semetism has been defeated and the term is now applied to anyone who doesn't have a patheological hatred of the Palestinians?

To be honest, I really don't think I'm anti-Semitic at all but I just refuse to be bludgeoned into silence by its use.

Sayeret,

You must be a comedian. Some examples of hypocrisy:

* Sadaam Hussein invaded for WMDs that don't exist, costing hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives, while Israel has known WMD stockpiles.
* Syria expected to withdraw troops from Lebanon while Israel occupies Syrian terrority.
* Palestinians seen as terrorists for targeting civilians while Israel can fire missiles from helicopter gunships into some of the most densely populated areas in the world and then deny it targets civilians.

The list could go on and on.

GrahamY,

Thankyou for not being intimidated by the Israel First crowd.

It's very rare these days...