The article by Mr Ushay claims the recent election in Iraq justifies the illegal invasion and occupation by the Coalition of the Willing (Britain, Australia and America) and allows America to claim that it is 'an hourable superpower'.
The fact that the Shi'ites voted is understandable because, knowing the Sunnis were boycotting the election, they sought to gain majority political power. The Kurds voted because they are seeking an independent State. American guns provided the backdrop to this bizarre senario.
What Mr Ushay leaves out of his analysis is that America acts out of self-interest. Hiding behind the 'we're spreading democracy mantra' America seeks to bring capitalism and promote greed to every corner of the world (whilest further strengthening and broadening its already overly large political, military and economic influence). To do this America connives happily with despots and terrorists (like Saddam and Osama), bribes, threatens, arranges coups, and, if all else fails, invades and occupies.
Be wary of Americans waving flags and talking about freedom, I say!

Oh NOT AGAIN.....Please tell us which countries DO NOT ACT OUT OF SELF INTEREST.
This is a vacuos slogan SINNI KAL (You must have stayed up all night working on the one), which when examined in depth pulls the rug from any arguement you may make.
"America only acts out of self interest" is your quote. Americas 'self interest' includes not being dragged back to the dark ages by theocratic mad mullas. It includes creating a world were you & I can have this debate. It includes maintaining a stable global economy so you, Sinni, can maintain your 'western lifesyle' by remnaining employed
Sinni, if the US only acts out of self interest, What is driving Iran? How are they acting in the "worlds Interest" by insisting on producing Nuclear Fuel when they have the worlds largest oil reserves.
Oh dear, didn;t think it through did you Sinni.

Dear Sayeret,
could I suggest, with respect, that you look up the meaning of the word 'debate'.

Sinni
your bed time reading must be John Pilger ?
The main problem of what u said, was that it seems to be assuming a world which does not exist outside the various coffee shops inhabited by pot smoking leftists ? I have to support what sayaret said.. 'which' country does not act out of self interest ? EVER ?
Having said that, the best we can expect is that the self interest which all countries base their actions on, will be as inclusive and ultimately beneficial for the countries they are influencing as well.
I DO take your point about some of the things u said "conspire with despots" etc..that has been the case in the past, but I also feel we are 'past' that now.
See Peter Sellicks article about God and Politics. Kings always need their prophets, to call them back to 'The Way'. and corporate USA is VERY needy in this regard. Let me direct you to just such an example of how the prophetic call CAN make a difference to a large multi-national which had been expoiting a 3rd world country.
http://www.tonycampolo.org/messages.shtml
See the message on 'Staying balanced in an unbalanced world'.. I think that's the one I'm referring to.
To me, the idea of a free and prosperous Iraq which is friendly to the West is quite a nice idea.
I'm genuinely interested in your WORKABLE and REAL WORLD alternative to this ? You appear to have canonized some version of law, "illegal" which just does not have any validity anywhere there is a bigger 'force' which can say "no, sorry, we have no interest in that" Even such an idea as 'international law' is without validity apart from force and potential devastating violence backing it up, because sadly this world is populated not just by well meaning conformist nice people, but it also has its share of morons and megalomaniacs who just plain 'want power for power's sake' err.. Kim Jong Ill for example.

Dear David,
thanks for your thoughtful, courteous response.

You mention megalomaniacs...George Bush, a fundamentalist, believes that his God, his Judeo-Christian Capitalism-Loving God, has chosen him for a mission to change our world using military force if necessary. The world he wants to create just happens to suit the insatiable greed of big corporations and the already rich (shame about the rest of us).

Given that messianic George has a huge armoury of weapons of mass destruction, and given that he is not the world's brightest person, doesn't that worry you just a bit?

Kind regards,

Sinni
kind and thoughtful ? :) ur stealing my lines. Yes, as a matter of fact, it does. But it is not as troubling as the thought of an Islamic theocracy, or a Communist dictatorship of the proletariat. Now, lets see, the alternatives are .......... *thinking*..... still scratching the old (literally) head.... aah.. a secular humanist model, where morality is 'make it up as we go' alah Peter Singer ? (cull the weaklings, the deformed and the non intelligent) or.. 'SinniKalism' :) now.. what is your solution ? Just remember one thing, whatever the solution, in this day and age, it MUST be backed up with "Power" (= weapons bigger than those likely to be used by would be Stalins etc) The reason being, is that whatever your solution, it will without doubt NOT be shared by many segments of the world population for either cultural, religious or both, reasons.
So, back to Bush, I'm concerned, but remember Vietnam ? why did they lose ?.. clearly they were WRONG, and the people knew it. If big business were to embark on a path of 'evil' there is the prophetic voice, remember Enron etc ? it all comes out in the end, BECAUSE of the freedom and decocracy that Bush is "messianically" trying to spread. (as u put it)
I don't live in a cocoon though, I know that US democracy is also a 'back door' for US corporations to try to manipulate other countries, (as with the Pharmeceuticals to our PBS) but I think u have by now noted, we won that battle thus far.
Your comments (re alternative/solution) are most welcome.

What is my solution? you ask, David.

Looking back over 6,000 years of endless conflict can only confirm that we humans are a despicable, stupid lot. Perhaps, during the Golden Age of Greece, when nobility was valued and money-grubbing was despised, we crawled a little way out of the swamp. Ever since it's been all down hill.

The dark, destructive forces inside us, most probably, can only be softened by powerful drugs or changed by genetic engineering. Perhaps, one day, following a nuclear war, a new, non-sectarian, humanist philosophy might emerge, one that values selflessness, humility, caring and sharing.

Force cannot create world stability. The belief that force and peace are somehow allied, a view promoted by America, is a ridiculous proposition. Force caters to our instinct to kill, to dominate. It breeds a huge arms industry which makes money from continuing wars. If the arms industry was closed down tomorrow the world economy would collapse (and those who control the world economy will not allow that to happen).

As well, training large numbers of killers (soldiers) in every country disposes nations towards war when they can't achieve their acquisitive objectives by other means.

What chance then for peace in a greedy, militaristic capitalist world?

None.

Kind regards,

Sinni
well, I'm refreshingly happy with your honesty, I really wasn't sure at first if u were going to advocate some socialist utopian dream :) but in reality, u and I are in total agreement by and large in our assessment of both human nature and the world.
That brings us to the solution.
I really hope u can take a deep breath, and bear with me thru a few steps of reasoning and exploration here. Pls refer to Peter Sellicks article about God and Politics, and in particular to his reference to the power struggle between the Emporer/King and the Prophet. The classic example is of king Saul, and the prophet Samuel. There is always a tendency for 'kings' (i.e. anyone or any group who/which is politically powerful and ambitious) to go their own way, to believe in their own manifest destiny etc. This is where the only voice of reason to hold them back is that of the prophet. Nathan confronted King David about his murder and adultery. The "State" always needs this voice, calling it back.

In the context of the USA and its current sense of manifest destiny to bring democracy, along side the other interests which u underlined (of the arms industry) the voice of the prophet should be calling them always to account for their social and economic murder and adultery. This is not to say that there is no legitimate role for arms industries and powerful nation states. (due to the flaws of human nature u observed) That role however must always be clothed in the garments of compassion and justice.

I firmly believe in 'New People' make good government, not 'New Systems'. For this reason, Paul in Romans chapter 12 states.

"Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect."

If you examine fairly the life and teaching of Jesus, you will find all that you crave for social renewal in Him.

Dear David,
6,000 years of history have given rise to all manner of religions, each one with their god or gods, each one with their wildly differing claims of 'truth'. So many attrocities, so much cruelty has been carried out by men claiming that 'God is on their side'.

George W., while his military forces drop cluster bombs on, and use depleted uranium explosives against, innocent civilians is, each Sunday, in a Christian Church enthusiastically singing about love for his neighbour (as are John Howard and Tony Blair). Some Muslims, rightfully fearing domination by the West, after prayers, go out and explode themselves in crowded markets believing that their death and the death of others will bring them martyrdom. Zionists leave the synagogue then, without qualm, go out in American tanks and Apache helicopters to kill largely defenceless Palestinians and take more of their lands. In Northern Ireland people belonging to the same Christian religion continue to fight and murder each other. Too often, religion divides people and ferments hatred.

David, there is not one shred of empirical evidence to support the existence of any god or of any afterlife. The only religion I have any time for are the Buddhists - at least they are a peaceable lot.

As an atheist, I respect your belief, David, but, as 6,000 years have clearly shown, religion is more part of the problem than the solution.

Kind Regards

Sinni
I take your points on board, but must enthusiastically disagree on some levels. The general principle I want to point out is illustrated very well in fact by one of your own examples. Northern Ireland. There are groups of sincere Catholics, and protestants, who actually get along splendidly, have love for each other etc... and that is what I'm referring to. The northern Ireland political history goes back to Cromwell and others,in that case, there is a close relationship between the political and religious history, but may I also point out, that among Jesus disciples were Simon the 'zealot' (aka anti Rome terrorist) and Matthew the (Pro Rome) Tax Collector and the target of the likes of Simon the Zealot.
Christ DOES change people, transform them, renew them. You say there is no shred of evidence for God ? wow :) different debate, but why not see just how it all panned out in the gospels. Have a read for yourself, discover the real kingdom of God.
Sinni, you are surrounded with an ocean of despair, and God slings you a lifebuoy but u swim the other way mate. U rascal!
Have a critical look at the life of Jesus, forget the church for a while.

"If anyone thirsts, let come to me and drink". John 7.37

Sinni, Jesus transformed the world. Within 300 yrs of his short 3 yr ministry, the Roman Empire declared itself 'Christian' ..yet not by sword, not by oppression, not by war, not by deceit nor by money, but by the power of the simple gospel to save and renew sinners humble enuf to admit their condition. Why not have a peek at that very gospel :)
cheers

Been there, done that, David. End of subject.

The issue I'm trying to bring attention to is that a delusional and intellectually challenged President, manipulated and controlled by a cabal of Christian Fundamentalists, Zionists, Right-wing extremists, large Corporations and Billionaires, is, surreptitiously and methodically, attempting to change the world order using military force.

Rome is burning! Where are the guardians of our democracy?

Sinni
something tells me there is more to your situation than u are letting on about, though u seem to be alluding to it . "been there, done that" ? hmm.. sounds like there is a bad 'church' experience lurking in that background of yours. I really don't think you have actually been there, because I don't see why anyone would leave such a relationship once they have known it apart from running away from what they know is right. Even if I was abused, short changed, ripped off, treated awfully etc by some 'church person' in who'm I'd hoped, I would not lose faith in Christ. When I went out as a missionary to Borneo, the senior Elder who had smilingly congratulated me on my step of faith, dumped his wife and took up with another woman, and there I was, alone and vulnerable in a strange land etc with 'them' as my support team. But I see things for what they are, he was always a curious character to me, and in the end it didn't surprise me.
I never managed to be with my dad when he died because a co-worker asked me to go a bit further with some stuff for a youth camp, while he was fading. But in all this, I knew Christ is alive and with me.

You are worried about the 'guardians' but without that which the prophets point to, 'why worry' ? what is there to worry about ? Nothing means anything in the long run anyway, so ? bring out the beer, lets party while there's life and time. Now u see my own cynicism, but its directed at a godless world.
Hope you drink from the endless fountain :)
You will probably rip into me about this, but I hope not.

Sometimes I wish I was Paris Hilton and I wouldn't have to think about these things

Sinni Kal,

It's simple. Vote him out. It's called Democracy. All this crap about Bush being a messiancal idiot. VOTE.
That's the beauty of democracy.
How do you get rid of the Islamists? Can't vote them out can you?

BTW there's a big difference between debating & shouting slogans at people Sinni.
What a truly bizzare world you inhabit.

Dear Sayeret,
for democracy to function properly it requires voters to be intelligent, educated and informed. People lacking in these attributes are easily manipulated by politicians, big business and the media which means that the outcome of any democratic election is not necessarily legitimate. The re-election of Bush via the covert actions of Christian Fundamentalists is one example.

This will be explained to you more fully as you progress through High School, Sayeret.

Sinni
bush was re-elected not just by we 'fundies', but by a groundswell of people who actually believe that there are social values worth struggling for. They don't have to be fundies for this u know.
They just have to have had a loving 'normal' upbringing and notice how incredibly determined are those to overthrow all that is precious to them. Do u notice the ACLU in the USA trying always to remove God and any skeric of tradition of national life, on the grounds of the non establishment clause of the constitution. (a bit of a read of that section and the various judicial opinions will quickly show that the ACLU is totally out of touch with the intention of the formers of the constitution).
That is what got Bush re-elected.
Your still long on whining and short on solutions :) but u've already agreed you dont have one, so why keep on about it brudda ? Look for solutions, read the scriptures with an open mind. Meet 'Him', know Him, and live 4 Him. :)

Sinni,

I know what democracy is. Its when the majority rule. Unfortunatley vocal minorities, like yourself, believe they know best, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.
Whilst acheiving my history degree, I was taught that this kind of behaviour is facism.
You expose yourself by using churlish expressions.
If i don't agree with you, you resort to name calling.
Whose the fascist now Sinni?

I do live in a bizarre world, Sayeret.

I'm trying to have a serious debate about world issues and the only people I can get to respond is a religious nutter who doesn't understand what an atheist is and someone whose grasp of logic is highlighted by statements such as: 'If I don't agree with you, you resort to name calling. Whose the facist now, Sinni?'

Nikki did make a very valuable, meaningful comment. Is there anyone else out there who is worried about the direction our world is heading in?

Do your history SINNI. How smart R U? WHAT IS A SAYERET MATKYEL. Religious nutter my arse you great buffoon