BOAZ_DAVID, I risk heading off topic even more here. Sorry to innocent bystanders if I do so.

The christian church has a legitimate role in public debate (just as any other special interest group has). The concern is that that role in debate should not be allowed to turn into imposing their beliefs on others.

Talking about what the church should be does not alter the reality of what it is. Talking about the way christians should use power does not alter the legacy of abuse of power by those who claim the name of Christ.

The christian church clearly has a corporate governance issue. The boss knows everything (before it happens even!). He is all powerfull. No workload is to big, no problem to hard. Dispite all that the church has a long history of major systematic screw ups.

Probably the most topical in modern times is the large number of children abused by employees (many of them in management) of the christian church. Why did the head of the church not act when young kids were being sodomised?

How many churches have not had a significant scandle involving senior leadership in recent history? How many times have church groups called for restriction's on others beyond the list proposed in David's earlier posting?

Why should we trust the church to stick to reasonable limits, there is nothing in it's history or present which leaves me with the confidence to trust it.

David, sorry if that seems too harsh. I get the impression that you take your faith seriously and like a lot of others in the church try really hard to live as you are called. I see the biggest issue being with the boss, not the long suffering person in the call centre. If the church is not living up to what it should be it is because it's members are under resourced in the things they need to do their job

Rob, each time I engage with someone about this kind of area, I note recurring themes.
Firstly, about "The Church" .. what is it ? It certainly is NOT the 'large beaurocratic organizations' which are probably in your mind. That might be a current manifestation of 'social Christianity' but 'The' church is that body of believers 'within' any tradition, who know and love the Lord Jesus as Savior. You should re-read my previous comments (last post).
By the way, you were not being too harsh in your last post when referring to the abuse etc. I see no connection between that kind of behavior and the Jesus of the Bible, so you have to 'figure' what is going on. U may well even ask 'Are these people Christian' ? its a good question. When Churches begin well intentioned social programs, these programs often take on a life of their own. The founders may have had unblemished motives, but those 'appointed' to staff such things as ophanages may have different motives that they don't share with prospective employers.
The idea of 'imposing' now that is the other theme that I hear with very predictable monotony (no offense) but its no different from other groups with agenda's all of which are based on 'beliefs'. The gay lobby being a prominent one. Everytime some loony says "Lets make Melbourne the Gay capital of Australia" it makes us want to puke.
When pastors are selectively punished by supposedly impartial bodies as the EOC, we are victimized further. So, its a 2 way street.

David apparently operates from the within the secure moral coccoon afforded him by his 'faith'. Just like the evangelical missionaries and crusaders who preceded him, he convinces himself that it's his duty to shove his beliefs down the throats of everybody else. That this 'evangelical' project of his might be unwelcome - or even offensive - to those who don't happen to share his religious beliefs probably doesn't even occur to him.

I consciously and rationally rejected the Christian religion many years ago because of the damage it has wrought historically and continues to inflict, directly and indirectly, on humanity and on the natural world. Does anybody agree with me that proselytisation such as that in which David all too frequently engages in these forums is not consistent with debate and 'critical thought'?

Best wishes,
Morgan

Morgan
u chose the wrong guy to speak about 'historical damage' done by the Christian religion. Firstly that is a very overgeneralized statement which could at a glance be described as religious vilification (see other thread). But don't worry, we are used to being misrepresented by all and sundry, yet strangely, we are still around and growing, and I guess that is a testimony that truth ultimately prevails.
Morg, my wife is from a people were 'decided' out of existence by the government because of extreme drunkenness, disease and starvation they were to be 'allowed to die out naturally'. They practiced all manner of abominable stuff like slavery and head hunting, leaving babies to die slowly because 'spirits' warned them etc.. They THEMSELVES found some missionaries, and simply wanted to learn about Christ. Today they have among their people doctors, lawyers, members of parliament. Christ... saves, renews, transforms. If u wish to make comments about the Christian faith, please differentiate carefully between its various expressions, and the parcticular cultural/social/political conditions which influenced that particular expression (e.g. inquisition)
Your comment about 'rationally' rejecting the faith would have much more credibility if your rather broad generalization had not leapt out of your mind and onto your keyboard. As for 'pushing' down throats.. my goodness, don't u ever listen to the TV chanels telling you 'if u dont like it, just change the chanel'

Morgan, Davids input into these forums is from a Christian perspective. It's just as legitimate as anyone elses perspective. If you don't like Christians don't read David's posts. Simple really.

The good that Christianity does in the world far outweighs the bad. I'm agnostic by the way.

Thanx Bozzie, u have it exactly.

as an example of how Christians have helped the community, one supreme example is that of Sidney Myer, founder of Myers stores, a Jew by background, came to know Christ thru the humble testimony of a man who was in the company taken over/bought out by Sidney (and who continued working with them).
The example of Sidney Myer is the classic 'show and tell' of the Christian life.(a prophetic call to righteous living, spoken AND lived out)

Sidney Myer once gave a Christmas dinner for 10,000 of melbournes destitute, with him and the myer staff serving them. (At the Exhibition Buildings)
Here are 2 links worth checking out.
http://www.myerfoundation.org.au/main.asp?id=&PageId=656
By the way guys, when was the largest ever MCG attendance ?

The record Grand Final attendance was recorded on Saturday 26th September 1970, when 121 696 saw Carlton defeat Collingwood by 10 points.

But guess what, that figure was far exceeded in 1959 when evangelist Billy Graham came to Melb, when almost 150,000 people attended. During those few weeks, fully one quarter of Australia's population attended a Billy Graham crusade somewhere in Australia. Many people today trace their changed lives to that time. Check out the link below.

http://www.kingsley.vic.edu.au/glenobrien/historylecture14.htm

His son Franklin Graham is coming to Melbourne (Telstra Dome) on march 17,18,19th, for the Festival Victoria. why not drop in and see something of contemporary Christianity, its free