Next you will be telling us NGS should be able to teach creation science instead of the real thing. If you actual valued education for all then you would still be teaching at a government school be a member of the teachers union and be trying to change on the inside. Read the article by Gregory Melleuish on this site there is a need right wingers in Academe.

No child's education should be dependant on the Childs parents ability to pay you would have it otherwise, mustn't let the scum rise above their station.

Well said Dr Donnelly …

Who killed Kenny !? Or at least his ability to reason …

Perhaps it was the very system described by Dr Donnelly in a previous article titled “Beware education's gender agenda - it's not just for Play School” at http://onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2287

Kenny at least got one thing right - "No child's education should be dependant on the child's parents ability to pay". Although Kenny's solution is for all children to be taught how to not spell, not think for themselves, not be able to add and subtract. It's pretty bad when a parent has to send their child to private school just so they can get a decent education. And now, because parents are abandoning the politically correct, ideologically driven government school system, the government feel the need to legislate private schools in an attempt to drag them down to the same pathetic levels as themselves. It would never occur to these nitwits to try and raise their own standards.

It infuriates me when people like Kenny assume that everyone who goes to private schools have rich parents. My wife's parents put all of their four children through private schools. He was a government meat inspector and she worked at a Shell roadhouse. They both took on second jobs to make ends meet. They certainly weren't rich and neither are the vast majority of people who send their kids to non-government schools. Who can blame parents for wanting the best education for their kids? Especially when the government system is failing dismally.

If the best education outcomes for children were the driving force behind government curriculum rather than left wing ideology then maybe more parents would feel comfortable sending their kids to government schools. Government should be trying to bring their schools up to the educational standards of non-government schools instead of regulating to bring independant schools down to their own pathetic levels.

If you believe that govt schools are ideologically driven, politically correct, incompetent, etc., then the arguments about deregulation might work as a means of damage control.

If you take the far more realistic view, which is that a) ideology doesn't affect government schools to any noticeable degree, and b) schools' success is proportional to socioeconomic background, so govt schools do, on average, as expected -- then the risks of deregulation far outweigh the advantages.

If a school receives govt. funding, then the school should be required to attain at the very least, the same exit standards as govt. schools. Investigation every 6 years is reasonable. After all, a school generation occurs every 6 or 7 years for primary level, and every 5 or 6 years at secondary school.

Why is it natural to assume attained standards in govt. schools result from ideology, or inability to sack teachers or any other external measure?

Parents like myself choose non-govt. because their facilities are better funded. Reading books are modern and plentiful. money is spent on teacher's supplies, classroom materials and buses for sporting trips and excursions.

If anything, there is more ideology in private schools, as most of them are faith-based and teach their own philosophy /ideology in respected class time.

Assuredly, the govt.school curriculum should be cutting edge...ideally. None of us function in ideal conditions, whether it be our families, workplaces or society in general. Why should our schools be the one place where the ideal is attainable?

I justify my choice to use a private school because I have a bright, intelligent child who deserves access to adequately funded education. Unfortunately, our local state schools can't offer that.

Blaming curriculum is a smoke-screen.

A recent OEDC report found that Australian ed standards were world class and higher then both the US and UK. The report also showed that the was not much difference between Gov schools and non. inbredisco can you point out where I said all people who went to NGS were rich. I think the only thing Seeker is seeking is confirmation of his/hers own beliefs not understanding.

Sorry inbredisco I ment bozzie

Kenny
When you look at the literacy test used, (the OECD uses the PISA test) students are not marked on grammar, punctuation and spelling. The Governments own national benchmarking has seen students who are dyslexic and have very poor literacy pass their basic skills test.

There is another test, the Trends in Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), conducted by the International Association for Evaluation of Educational Achievement. The results of this test shows we were not up to standard. TIMSS tests more traditional learning- things most parents and employers say are important to be able to do like spell correctly and construct a readable and coherent sentance, whereas PISA looks at the ability to guess and figure out how to solve a problem, or read and comprehend a passage of writing. The answer being right or wrong, relatively immaterial.

If things were working the way the state curriculum is saying they should work, then why are our universities and TAFE colleges having to put first year students through basic maths and english language skills courses?

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulacity uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgniegand I awlyas thuoght slpeling was ipmorantt!

Times tables by memory is not learning my father can tell me what 8 times 8 is but he uses a calculator to find out what 454335.567 times 545235.7655 is.

Kenny, difference is you don't look stupid using a calculator to work out one of those two equations.

Some people think I look stupid doing either!

Mine point was calculators are cheap there are many skills that have fallen by the wayside becuase of new tech and the times tables are one. My kids will learn the geometry at a younger age then I did.

In reply to Nita's opinion, I'd like to see the official evidence that university students require 'basic english skills'. I believe this is one of those urban myths that, once uttered, take hold and become entrenched fact.

I don't think it's possible to enter university or Tafe with below average scores, is it?

Oh, unless you're a fee-paying student, of course!

If I can work out the cost of a few stamps in my head, why do the staff need a calculator? There's nothing wrong with the times table if it means kids are independent of calculators for the simplest calculation.

It's no wonder more parents are sending their kids to independent schools when homosexual activists are allowed to visit Victorian schools and tell kids what a great lifestyle it is! This despite the fact that 85% of AIDS cases are homosexual males! This figure was quoted by the Gay Lobby itelf in the Industrial Relations Commission in 1994.

Sorry

Character in South Park called “Big Gay Al” ? Using old data to prop up your ideas is quite irresponsible and sad. As a hetro male who is completely comfortable with my sexuality, I can happily sit next a gay person I won’t gay cooties. I am also quite happy with anybody telling my children that they should not feel bad about being homosexual, bisexual, asexual or heterosexual. Any way this thread is about education not social studies. If you want to teach your kids to be bigots take them to a right wing Pentecostal church. There are very few things in life that you have to in your head whether you grab a piece of paper of a calculator is ok by me. The children today may not be able to parrot out the times tables but they will be able to work out what the answer is. If they get a job where there is a need to multiply in your head then they will quickly learn that skill.

Given that the name you picked for yourself may well be a Freudian slip I think you should take a good look within yourself. Hell go a buy a copy of “Out” it might stir some feelings.

Of course, anyone who disagrees with you would be a "bigot" wouldn't they? The Commonwealth Health Department was similar figures of 85% if AIDS cses coming from less than 2% of the adult male popultion in male homosexuals. The fact that they are permitting this rubbish in Victorian Government schools makes it an Educational issue. If I were to read "Out" it would stir feelings all right -Revulsion!

You say that the children will work out the answer if they need to. That they will quickly learn to multiply in their heads. If they can't learn it at school, who's going to teach them to do it? It's a bit late by then, and makes it hard to learn, when it would have been easy earlier. It's apparent that without calculators most young people are struggling. It's not fair to them that they were not taught the basics of maths and spelling [usually atrocious] when they were in State primary school.

Collins Dictionary
Bigot: n Person intolerant of ideas of others.
If the shoe fits wear it.

But they are taught the basics show me the maths course that doesn't include how to +,-,/ and x. All schools in Australia are covered by their state curricula so if kids are doing better in ngs's (some data says no) then maybe it's something else. Maybe it's is class size or teacher, student ratios. Kevin is wishing us to move down a US model where curricula can be set by the school itself. We have seen in the US a big drop in the level of science trainning. Over half the country thinks the world is only 6 thousand years old and many other dumb ideas. Gues what they are just as bad as us at adding up and have to import scienist.

Great to read the responses to the article. In relation to pisa/timss, Nita is correct, pisa dumbs down and employs a flawed methodology while timss actually looks at what should be taught in the classroom. See the following article in the Oz for further details:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11852065%255E7583,00.html
Kevin D

Kenny, by your own definition, you are intolerant of my ideas, and therefore a bigot yourself. If the other shoe fits, you wear it.
[This could go on forever].

Well said Dr Donnelly, seeker, bozzie and nita. I would hate to see a system where the Left-wing Teachers' Union and the Government had a monopoly. Ask yourself why so many teachers in the State system send their kids to Independent schools.

If State schools put as much importance on basic maths and learning to spell as they do on trendy issues and sex education, the kids might learn to spell "copulate" before they engage in it.

I admit it is an exaggeration, but it sometimes seems to me that they know how to do it BEFORE they know how to spell it!

Kenny, put your calculator and dictionary away, pull up your pants, put your shoes back on, and get back to class!

Big Al 30, stop harassing homosexuals! (it is politically incorrect at this government school ;-)!

Thanks Kevin.

Seeker, seems to me that it's the homosexuals doing the harrassing, especially by visiting Government schools and trying to influence the children.

Ohh, I get it. the right-wingers continue on with their emotional diatribe until they tire everyone else out, thus ensuring they have the last word!
Homosexuals doing the harassing???
PUHLEEEEESE!

Yes, oceangirl, homosexuals trying to influence school children. Do their parents have a say in this? I think I recall that there are no provisions to opt out of these "lectures". They call smoking a health hazard[and rightly so] and discourage it in many ways.

Yet something which accounts for 85% of AIDS cases must be a serious health hazard, and instead of discouraging it, they help it to be accepted even in schools. It's stupid, irresponsible and too crazy for words.

Big Al,

There was a push last year to introduce gay and lesbian sex education into ACT schools. It was defeated. Still though the idea is out there. I wonder what parents think of this, not to mention the teachers who would have to teach it.

Unfortunately, it wasn't defeated in Victoria, they just imposed it on the community. No wonder parents and grandparents are willing to pay to keep their kids away from such influences. It doesn't make any sense to encourage these unnatural, unhealthy lifestyles.

While everyone is free to comment on the book and the issues raised as they see fit, a bit of a concern that so much comment has focused on the gender debate. There are many other significant issues we need to confront if our education systems are to improve.