Big A, It seems to me that you are interpreting the text of Ruth from a moralistic stance and you miss what is in the text. That is exactly my point about Mary, Catholic piety posits her as the pure queen of heaven and she is connected to sexual morality. That means we miss what is actually going on in Matthew's text.

Holy Spirit: granted "He" is good. I remember something about Hebrew and the spirit being feminine but I could not vouch for it, hence my slip.

I do not understand your objections to the quote from Rowan Williams.

The theological point about evil is that it is not up to us to name it, hence my obscure reference to the knowledge of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. In the text this is a grasping after the things of God who alone knows he difference between good and evil. That does not make us morally impotent, we may still oppose the violent, but it is not up to us to name them evil.

Big Al, your fine distinction between "revere" and "worship" would be lost on the many millions of poor Roman Catholics around the world who think that Mother Mary will save them from poverty and natural disasters. Are you avoiding my question about the second commandment as recorded in the original hebrew text?

Peter, on the subject of sexual morality, I understand that the words "adultery", "fornication", "whore" and "whoredom" are mentioned more than 500 times in the bible, whereas the word "morality" is not mentioned once. Biblical scribes and scholars were sadly obsessed with the sexual behaviour of women, much the same as the islamic fundamentalists of today.

Grace, I'm surprised that you are having difficulty in distinguishing between "revere" and "worship". As far as I can tell, the many millions of "poor Roman Catholics" have no trouble. The second verse of he "Hail Mary" says "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen. So if Catholics "worshipped" Mary as Divine, they wouldn't ask her to pray to anyone else would they? I checked the Cathechism of the Cathoic Church which says p253 that devotion to Mary "differs essentially from the adoration "given to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I hope that puts your mind at rest.

I am not trying to avoid your question. Please quote your version of the second Commandment.

Grace, what do you think my article about Mary was trying to say? In the face of traditional proscriptions about sexual immorality that we find in any culture we have this strange tradition that sees the hand of God in less than regular sexual relations. I think you will find that the Old Testament is not so easy to pin down. The other point I would like to make is that we see sexuality through decades of libertarian movements that have set us free for all kinds of behaviour, much to our dis-ease.

Big Al, I am surprised that you misunderstood my point about revere/worship. Its quite simple really. Whilst you were able to refer to page 253 of your catechism to check the difference and confirm your understanding, millions of poor and uneducated people around the world who worship Mary do not have access to written authorities such as yours, do not have the skills or the incentive to debate the issue, and would find the distinction meaningless in their daily lives.

On the subject of the second commandment, this shameless infidel is boldly venturing into arcane religious exegesis as follows.

It is my understanding, on the basis of secondary sources, that the second commandment in the Catholic Catechism reads, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".

By contrast, the Hebrew version apparently reads, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments."

The Protestant version apparently reads similarly to the Hebrew, omitting the first line of the Hebrew version, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me".

Assuming you agree with the general thrust of my quotations (and Peter might like to add comment from the protestant perspective), my point should be obvious. Why does the Roman Catholic church omit the bits about bowing down to graven images (such as statues of Mary sold in shops)? Is it because this might disallow the worship and adoration of saints?

Peter, you appear to me to be lecturing women about their sexual behaviour, just as the bible does, interminably and obsessively. You appear to be saying that it is a marvellous thing that your god recognises and names a few "fallen" women in the bible, because this shows that even "sinful" or "less than regular" women can be saved if they believe in your god (and be damned if they don't). You believe that modern society is somehow sexually diseased, presumably as the result of political correctness, communism, abortion, adultery etc. As I understand it, you do not support the "politically correct" social progess made by women in recent years, presumably because such progress contradicts our predestined biblical roles as either damned whores or god's police.