This article really jumped out at me when it came in. It's easy to assume that because you eat, say, American hotdogs, and watch American movies, understand the US electoral college system, and everyone seems pretty much the same there as they do here, but with a few accentuated differences, you know what Americans are like.

With people from non-Anglo cultures there is a prima facie, genetically and evolutionarily programmed sense of distance and alienation, but not with our cousins across the Pacific. Emunah shows me how wrong I am to project Australia onto the US, but not in the way that a Michael Moore might, where I'm pretty sure that the stereotypes are no more valid than my own, but with a sense of almost empathy for those she nevertheless criticises.

Regarding:Jehovah's Witnesses Fanatics:
Do a comparative Internet search and you will find that there are about four times more disgruntled Ex Jehovah's Witnesses websites 'per capita',then the other religions.

The outcry against the greedy ripoff Jehovah's Witnesses cult and their family wrecking is loud and clear.

Please don't squander your life for a miserable cult.

[Theologically,Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult of Christianity. The oppressive organization does not represent historical, Biblical Christianity in any way. Sociologically, it is a destructive cult whose false teachings frequently result in spiritual and psychological abuse, as well as needless deaths.]

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,but not their own facts".

Watchtower Whistleblower;Danny Haszard Bangor Maine USA http://www.DannyHaszard.com

The good news is that your experience of having been bullied, in essence, by the Christian majority as you grew up, is not everyone's experience. It sounds like one of those Deep South/Bible Belt sort of places, and luckily that doesn't cover the entirety of the U.S. That certainly does not characterize the places I've grown up in, which also have Christian majorities. So, cheer up, it isn't that bad.

Next, as you pointed out, you were referring to Christian fundamentalists, which does not characterize a majority (not even close) of Christendom worldwide. So I hope your points were not meant to be taken against all of Christendom.

Last, having said all that, I hope that your conclusions about the republican no-nos (stem cell research, abortion, gay marriage) were drawn from solid, careful, critical analysis. It would be a shame if the basis for the side you've chosen in that debate is as limited as the two dismissive sentences in your article. For example, "using foetus cells" is quite inaccurate, since the entire foetus is destroyed in the process of gathering stem cells, a process which quite often fails in that endeavor, while still destroying the foetus anyway.

Lastly, the article's title (comes out as the browser's title) says "Christian Fundamentalist America". I would like to think that whomever coined this title actually meant "Christian Fundamentalist Area of America", as not all of America is Christian Fundamentalist. If this was meant to be a swipe at the recent election results, then it is downright false, since a big chunk of the Bush supporters were Catholic, and Catholics are among the last people one would ever characterize as Christian Fundamentalist.

Hi Jeff,

The titles are set by the editors, so I take ultimate responsibility. It wasn't meant as a swipe at anyone, and I think the phrase actually indicates a specific subset of the US, rather than being indicative of its entire area.

Graham Young
Chief Editor

What is scary is that Fundamentalist Christianity in the US is beginning to look a lot like the Taliban in Afghanistan. They started on a moral ground, captured the political scene, and then played havoc with the country...and ironically both needed Osama Bin Laden to do it.

Christians aren't bad people but Fundamentalists (in any religion)are way beyond just bad--they're scary bad--because they speak for a God whom they can't hear because they shout their ignorance too loud.

If they looked in the Scripture they so proudly quote from (ignorance) they will realize that even Jesus said to render to the government what is supposed to be the government's and keep in the church what is the church's. In other words, don't push what you believe on someone else--the choice is theirs not some cloister's perogative.

Christianity is suffering because of (fundamentalist and ignorant (oxymoronic?)) Christians.

Hi, Graham. Pleasantly surprised and quite appreciative of your clarification. Perhaps the title can be taken both ways. :P

Jeff, you are correct that I refer to Christian fundamentalists and not all of Christiandom.

Indeed, the argument suggested by the title “Christian Fundamentalists Have Hijacked Moral Values” has been most passionately and astutely articulated by Christians themselves.

See Richard Glover's editorial “Those things we were liable to read into the Bible: it ain’t necessarily so,” in the Sydney Morning Herald 6 Nov. 2004:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/Richard-Glover/Those-things-we-were-liable-to-read-into-the-Bible--it-aint-necessarily-so/2004/11/05/1099547384111.html
See also the (American) National Council of Churches' general secretary
Rev. Robert Edgar's statements at
http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5085533.html
See the Village Gate blogs at http://therightchristians.org/
And see Whyme?'s comments above

I would echo the sentiment expressed by these Christians, many of them American, that the “moral values” central in U.S. politics are only one interpretation of Christ’s teachings. This interpretation is arguably just as ridiculous, short-sighted and coercive as the behaviours I grew up with.

Debate on what many see as a morally questionable practice of 1) interpreting the Bible in many of the ways “moral values” voters did and/OR 2) limiting “moral values” to gay marriage, etc and prioritising these ABOVE the social and environmental problems plaguing America, Christian principles of inclusion and respect for life (war casualties and aging adults) etc., I believe is beyond the scope of my article, whether set in a secular or Christian framework.

I intended to draw a cynical analogy between the immovable, questionably constructed but influential aspects of fundamentalism and the illogic of adolescent politics, because that is largely how I (and some adults I knew) experienced it. Those two sentences are meant as a nod to very worthy contributors to what is already a vibrant, well-treated argument.

Point taken, that the debate you mentioned was beyond the scope of the article these comments were about. However, just in case you plan to pursue this topic in future articles, you may want to consider:

It is easy to dismiss what is being said against abortion, gay marriage, and foetal stem cell research, on the basis of a stereotype, i.e., "the American Christian Fundamentalist".

On the other hand, it would be worth considering what basis other groups have for saying the same things. Those include theologians, scientists and medical practicioners, including embryologists, and philosophers, all of whom go beyond the Bible. Scientists and embryologists are the best people to ask about when human life begins. Catholic and Orthodox sources are the most consistent for over 2,000 years against abortion.

I would also suggest digging deeper into Christian viewpoints as there are a number of them, varying in consistency and (claims or basis of) authority. Whyme?'s post is one interpretation of what belongs to Caesar, but the Catholic Church certainly disagrees. Those URLs you cited have articles that don't quite represent the norm of Christianity. As this is about a specific issue, you might as well look at the arguments given by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches: they've been arguing against abortion since the first century, before the Bible's New Testament was completely written and compiled in the 4th century.

Emunah, I'm sorry to hear you didn't fit in as an adolescent. That's one of the harder things to deal with at that age.

But spare a thought for all the other teenagers who didn't fit in for other reasons in other social contexts. Imagine Christian children growing up in an athiest, hedonistic school. For example spare a thought for the girls who were labelled "frigid" because they wouldn't "give out" on the first date at the age of 13. Or the "nerds" who didn't try marijuana or cocaine.

Also consider the kids scorned as "christian fundamentalists" for publicly opposing abortion and admitting they go to church, who then have pentagrams and pro-choice slogans graffited on their school bag and books.

I hope that eventually you will be able to objectively consider the claims of Christianity and Judaeism rather than allowing these bitter memories to fester away and make you just another Christian-hater.

I am a ex Christian, but now an agnostic. I could never come to terms with the cherrypicking of "Christian values" and the hypocrisy of those who claimed to have them. How about " a tree shall be known by its fruit." .... "turn the other cheek"? ..... "its harder for a rich man to go to heaven than a camel to through the eye of a needle" ....... "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars" ? I believe these are all out of the gospels by memory. I could go on and on quoting the bible and giving examples if neccessary. I met many good individual Christians, but my exprience of the the church left me with impression it was a safe haven for the low level pyschotics of this world, with the inability to gain power in the secular world.

Dirtylie, it is unfortunate that your experience has been as you say. In my own experience, keeping in mind that no one is perfect, the Christians I know seem to try reasonably hard to live as Christians. They're not in-your-face preaching Christians either. Just.. ordinary Christians.

Some would be confused about certain issues, others get confused in gray situations, and they all fail to measure up from time to time. To me they still seem to be decent folks. I know that some Christians have been taught that they can never do wrong, and this attitude can be cloying, but this is misinformation. My own Catholic faith tells me instead that we most certainly remain sinners for as long as we live, and it is the challege of a lifetime to carry our daily cross, following Christ, picking ourselves up whenever we fall.

As for gaining power of any sort, perhaps you are right, lots of Christians can't even see the need to gain power. That certainly squares with my own attitude about power in the secular world: what for? :-)

Wow, Ruby! Your comments about Emunah actually made me laugh out loud. You're serious?

"I hope that eventually you will be able to objectively consider the claims of Christianity and Judaeism rather than allowing these bitter memories to fester away and make you just another Christian-hater"

Isn't there an in-between here? Can't people have an opinion, a perspective other than the majority? Is this your response to anyone who doesn't share your point of view?

It's a big world and we've all have enormous differences in our upbringing, our personal experiences, our faith. Shouldn't we embrace everyone, disagreements aside?

I think it was Gothe who said:

"No two people see the world exactly alike, and different temperaments will apply in different ways a principle that they both acknowledge. The same person will, indeed, often see and judge the same things differently on different occasions: early convictions must give way to more mature ones. Nevertheless, may not the opinions that a person holds and expresses withstand all trials, if only one remains true to oneself and others?"

Maybe it's time we played a little music together.