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The Forum > Article Comments > Breezes and sunshine cannot manufacture anything: electricity cannot exist without crude oil! > Comments

Breezes and sunshine cannot manufacture anything: electricity cannot exist without crude oil! : Comments

By Ronald Stein and Todd Royal, published 15/1/2024

Electricity came after crude oil as all the components to generate electricity are made with oil derivatives manufactured from oil.

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More renewables, more mining, more child slavery. No more steel making, not much manufacturing. China is now the big steel procedure because it uses coal, coal and more coal, sold to them by hypocritical Australian governments who don't want us to continue having the benefits of coal.

As for oil: not having it will turn Australia into something like the pre-1788 country it was.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 15 January 2024 9:34:35 AM
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According to Patzek et al the EROEI of food production is 0.1. That is 10 calories or kilojoules in, mostly oil based, for every 1 in the final energy of food. I haven't seen a lot of hydrogen powered combine harvesters about. This is why I see the end of oil as a bigger threat to humanity than climate change. Rising food prices are an early sign.

I fear that green steel and green cement will require some fudging of the figures. If world population was say 2 bn then Mother Nature could absorb pollution more easily and we wouldn't have to delude ourselves. Things will be crook by 2030 I reckon.
Posted by Taswegian, Monday, 15 January 2024 10:09:25 AM
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Read the "Statement of Expectations" that Jim Chalmers has given Danielle Wood, his modish new Productivity Commission chief.

It says that none of this matters, that the real world in Australia will bend itself to the woke Chalmers economy of "harnessing data and digital technologies, delivering quality care, and getting to net zero and becoming a renewable energy superpower".
Posted by Steve S, Monday, 15 January 2024 10:53:47 AM
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This risible rubbish. As is becoming a renewable energy superpower. Wind turbines need to turn for thirty years, just to offset the carbon used in their manufacture.

Nuclear energy can make electricity and if it's cheap enough, MSR thorium, using established known science, turn seawater into all manner of hydrocarbons. When we add coal to iron ore, we deoxidise the hematite and that then becomes steel.

What coal adds is hydrogen and some lamp black to make high carbon steel. There are other sources of the above that can supply the above. Recycled plastic, tyres and hydrogen plasma.

The carbon we need for high carbon steel can be CO2 added as plasma.

Management teaches, there's always a better way. Even if Grandpa allus did it the old way.

ttbn, owe you an apology for calling a pea brain. You've probably got a normal sized brain. But it could have atrophied from lack of use?

Sorry, just joking. A fractured hip, a fractured spine and 24/7 pain, makes me a lot less tolerant these days. Moreover, I have never suffered fools gladly.

No offense meant.

We need to find and use alternatives to coking coal, which has become too expensive.

Cement can be made using the old Roman very low carbon formula, which by the way, hugely outlasts modern cement. Not certain, but I think it may have been burnt lime and steel making slag combined?

The heat can be nuclear as opposed to burning wood to burn/cook the lime?

As for steel making, a giant blast furnace can just as easily burn hydrogen as Gas. Methane/natural Gas, is mostly hydrogen with few carbon atoms bonded on.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Monday, 15 January 2024 5:28:46 PM
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I haven't seen a lot of hydrogen powered harvesters about. But before very long we may well do. There have been some breakthroughs in the extraction, via hydrolysis, of hydrogen from water.

And there's solar powered panel that just produces hydrogen. Imagine having a few of those on the farm and making all the storable harvester fuel you need.

The current price of diesel makes just a matter of time!

We need to produce food every boy and his dog can afford! And not via taxpayers' subsidies!

Taxes shouldn't be used/wasted that way. Not on farms nor mining sites! Taxpayers were never consulted!

Jobseeker is ok if you are not earning a quid.

There's been a stupid practise by badly advised farmers over the years, of buying new machinery, even as the old reliable was still going and serviceable. Just to avoid tax.

Then as the as the bad years hit, the non-consulted taxpayers were tapped again and again.

If they'd invested during the good years in off farm assets, they'd be getting a quid during the bad years and paying some money into the tax pool.

Just like nobody asked if we wanted more taxpayer funded migrants. Especially, when we cannot house the folks, we already have here!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Monday, 15 January 2024 6:05:08 PM
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Suppose one cannot expect more from the Atlas or Koch Network linked US fossil fuel Heartland Institute (as is AIP, IPA, CIS etc.), sentimental agitprop versus reality?

FT 'Opinion Data Points: Economics may take us to net zero all on its own. The plummeting cost of low-carbon energy has already allowed many countries to decouple economic growth from emissions.

JOHN BURN-MURDOCH

In 2009, coal was still an attractive option for countries looking for affordable energy, its average costs coming in well below renewables. But by 2020, both wind and solar had become far cheaper per unit of energy. In some markets, capital-intensive new installations even worked out cheaper than existing coal plants.'

https://www.ft.com/content/967e1d77-8d3c-4256-9339-6ea7025cd5d3
Posted by Andras Smith, Tuesday, 16 January 2024 6:55:17 PM
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Hi Andras,

The linked article you provided makes no mention of dispatchable energy. Non-dispatchable wind and solar might be cheap, but making them dispatchable makes them very expensive. Nuclear power stations in service for many decades produce dispatchable energy at similar cost to non-dispatchable wind and solar.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 17 January 2024 6:11:26 AM
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Fester,
Been saying that since Day 1 !
Posted by Indyvidual, Wednesday, 17 January 2024 8:27:39 AM
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Where is the evidence for your claims?

You make no mention of batteries, home e.g. solar systems and rejigging networks etc.?
Posted by Andras Smith, Wednesday, 17 January 2024 4:51:24 PM
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Hi Andras,

Think about metrics like "system cost". If you had a basic understanding of lcoe and dispatchable vs non-dispatchable energy you wouldn't ask such silly questions, but your lack of knowledge would explain your support of renewable energy.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 17 January 2024 7:22:29 PM
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No need to patronise me, but you seem to suggest that 'dispatchable' sources are absolutely foolproof and reliable, while ignoring outages, costs, pollution/carbon emissions etc. vs. other energy storage systems e.g. batteries supplied by solar and wind?

Further, evidence has been presented of this transition occurring already, fast, but you only offer your non expert opinions or narratives to present or rebut, for delay....?

Perverse in Australia under supposed libertarian and free market 'Kochonomics', but defying market forces and economics; why should fossil fuels be gifted state and/or socialist support?

Same ecosystem as the US fossil fueled Tanton ZPG anti-immigrant and anti-population growth movement, that is desperate to avoid the facts i.e. no positive growth in fertility trends globally (ex. Israel & Georgia) and the global population is already stallinging to a mid century peak (largely due to longevity).
Posted by Andras Smith, Wednesday, 17 January 2024 9:24:19 PM
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