Google Gang note, "We can all support our own view of things from the rational to the wildly disparate and plain wrong by occupying our chosen echo chamber".

People with the brains and memories of goldfish who don't even remember the seven day cycle of media generated trash, and who are trained by communist teacher's unions to believe that the past doesn't matter, are unlikely to be able to think about the "two thousand years of Christian thought that has formed our society".

As for "grounds for our society turning its back on the Church" - is modern society such that it is fit to pass judgement on the errors of the past? I think not.

The attack on the jugular:

Theologism defines Christian sensualism.

Dan

Dear Peter,

We can remember some of the things that Christianity has done. One can hearken to the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, Mathew 7:16 “By their fruits shall ye know them.”

Some of these fruits are the occupation of lands inhabited by Aborigines, American Indians and other indigenous cultures and the extirpation of those cultures along with the enslavement and murder of the peoples and forcing Christianity on them, massacres of Jews and other non-Christians, murder of Servetus, Hypatia, Vanini, Bruno and other scientists and thinkers who questioned the Christian worldview, house arrest of Galileo, Wars of the Reformation where Christians of one kind killed Christians of another kind, the slave trade, the Inquisition and the support of most of the churches in Nazi occupied lands for Hitler.

In South Africa there was a Truth and Reconciliation Commission in which the powers in the Apartheid regime acknowledged their crimes and made peace with those they have oppressed. Christian churches might do the same.

No David f.

South Africa is now the anarchy of Capitalist plunder: Under Apartheid it was a well ordered society, Now all die equally disastrously.

This:

http://youtu.be/f6yhdBMqWJU

Dan

The decline of (paganized) Christianity is not some of a decline in faith but a decline in church membership. And it's claimed Authority, which seems to have spilled over into areas that are not faith related, but what happens in the privacy of bedrooms and who can marry who. And has absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the original esoteric Christians.

As for what Christianity and what it has done? It includes the Spanish inquisition, torture, the iron maiden and 6 million Muslims put to the sword, with blood-soaked bishops at the head of sword wheeling Crusaders. That had and has absolutely nothing common with the example Of the Master!

It also includes centuries of pedophile Priests buggering boys and even raping girls!

It has gotten itself involved in politics to the detriment of the church and has amassed a small fortune (trillions) in real estate and commercial business that competes with regular business but with an unfair advantage. And for all those above reasons and many more (word limits) it, has become a sty in the eye of God!
Alan B.

This essay provides a unique Illuminated Understanding of the shift in human consciousness and the all-the-way-down-the-line cultural consequences as a result of the European Renaissance. Elsewhere he pointed out that this shift began several hundred years prior to the Renaissance.
http://www.daplastique.com/essay/the-maze-of-ecstasy

It could even be said that this shift began when the church "fathers" appealed to the Aristotle's reason to bolster the "theological" justifications of the Christian dogma and belief system. Remember too that there are many cultural taboo's against anyone becoming too "mystical".
This brief reference provides a critique of left-brained reason
http://fearnomore.vision/the-vision-of-fear-no-more/love

This reference describes the cultural taboo's against Higher (yogic) knowledge and Realization http://www.dabase.org/up-1-3.htm

This reference provides a unique Understanding of what human beings represent http://fearnomore.vision/human/what-man-represents - pointing out that we are "living" way-way-down in the scale of our evolutionary potential.
Also http://fearnomore.vision/world-2/the-divine-has-no-purpose

This reference describes the non-religious universal Teaching of Saint Jesus of Galilee http://www.dabase.org/up-5-2.htm

This reference provides a scathing critique of our dreadful sanity
http://www.beezone.com/adida/jesusandme.html

A later extended version of the above essay can be found in section 17 of this reference http://www.dabase.org/up-6.htm

And of course what was/is called "official" institutional Christian-ism only began at least 300 years later when/after Constantine made Christian-ism the official religion of the Roman State.

It is pleasant to use words as a pathway to wander through time.
And there are lots of words given, so a very pleasant journey can be had?
But it does seem to me that the exhortation is all external to the human.
It wanders in to the realms of theory too much?
It would be better to have an in depth discussion of how our instinctive behaviour operates?
An examination of how it all works.
And how we apply that to living together in a democracy.

I admire those who can write with ease, and produce reams of text for our perusal.
But it is best when they write about something practical?
I had a neighbour who read extensively on a great variety of subjects.
He had an excellent brain, and was very 'learned'.
His desk was always 'cluttered' with 'tomes' written by those of great mental acuity.
But his life was a bit of a muddle, and he contributed very little that I could see.
He had 'floated' through life, busily trying to breed wherever he could.
When he passed, there was barely a ripple on the surface of life around him.

Speaking of religion, culture and art, especially Sacred Art this essay provides a unique criticism of the dark awfulness of the times as inevitably communicated in the art created by Narcissus
http://www.adidafoundation.org/essays/the-eternal-war-between-orpheus-and-narcissus

On the always separative action of Narcissus
http://www.beezone.com/narcissus.html

Dear Ipso Fatso,

If our behavior is truly instinctive we cannot in general find out how it operates since we are unable to put the distance between ourselves and that behavior necessary for an objective examination.

Your neighbor sounds like an admirable fellow. He didn’t cause masses of people to attack other people. He didn’t persuade people to buy what they didn’t need. He pleasantly acquired information. I identify with him.

I have on my desk a book on the Riemann-zeta function. It tells of the work done in trying to prove the conjecture that the non-trivial solutions of that function lie on the line z = ½. As far as I know proving the conjecture has no practical application.

I have other books on my desk on matters which I enjoy. “The Ode less Travelled” by Stephen Fry tells of various poetical forms such as metre, rhyme and form. In the book are exercises one can do to become familiar with these techniques.

I have a history of Christianity by Diarmaid MacCulloch on my desk. In it is the following:

I still appreciate the seriousness which a religious mentality brings to the mystery and misery of human existence, and I appreciate the solemnity of religious liturgy as a way of confronting these problems. I live with the puzzle of wondering how something so apparently crazy can be so captivating to millions of other members of my species. P. 11

I don’t agree that it is best when one writes about something practical. We can’t always tell in advance when something is practical. If something is informative, entertaining and causes one to think and question it may also be practical. If not it is still of value. I will be 97 on the 31th of this month. My passing will cause my wife and 9 descendants to experience what I hope is a short period of grieving. Probably, nobody else will note my death with other than a ripple of momentary interest.

Well we've listed all the bad things that Christianity
has done. And having been raised as a Catholic I am well
aware of all the "sins of the fathers." But in all fairness,
should we mention the vast network of schools, hospitals,
health, employment and welfare agencies? Those of us who've
grown up as Catholics would have experienced the hard-line
views of the church on a variety of subjects - and the
attacks that used to take place against certain groups.

The sexual abuse scandals has shaken many of us to the core.
And may explain the decline in church membership. Especially
of young people - many of whom feel that their belief in
the institutions of the church have been severely shaken.

But it is strange that despite all that - I am still drawn
to the rituals provided by the church. To the community
spirit and fellowship the church provides. And I still pray
in times of need. Not sure what that says about me.

Old habits die hard?

I forgot to mention that a few decades ago I read
the book by Australian Catholic priest Paul Collins,
"Believers," on whether Catholicism had a
future in Australia. It ended on quite a positive note.

However it's interesting that in March 2001 - Paul
Collins resigned his role as a Catholic priest die to
a dispute with the Vatican's Congregation For The
Doctrine of the Faith over his book, "Papal Power."

Paul Collins has a Master's in Theology from Harvard
and a PhD in history from ANU.

There's a book titled - "Absolute Power," which was
published in 2018 that covers the last two centuries of
the papacy. It may be of interested to anyone
interested in the history of today's complex power
structures, as well as anyone interested in religious,
political, and social progress in the West.

Dear Foxy,

Matthew Arnold described the loss of faith in “On Dover Beach” published in 1867.

“The Sea of Faith
Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furled.
But now I only hear
Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
Retreating, to the breath
Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
And naked shingles of the world.”

Arnold was fearful of what will follow the disappearance of the Sea of Faith.

“Ah, love, let us be true
To one another! for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.”

I was once an ardent Zionist and thought Israel would be a ‘light unto the nations.’ Where a country is based on a religious or ethnic identity those citizens of the country who do not share the religious or ethnic identity on which the state is based almost certainly will become second-class citizens. Now I think a person’s ethnic or religious identity should be no business of any government. I don’t think Israel can be both a democracy and a Jewish state.

I still appreciate the beauty of the Jewish liturgy and music. I appreciate the respect for learning.

Say not: “When I have free time I shall study”, for you may perhaps never have any free time

Hillel the Elder

I enjoy the foods, the history and other aspects of Jewish culture, but I can no longer seriously consider God, keeping kosher or other religious concepts or injunctions.

I knew a Lutheran pastor. He had ideas similar to mine. He told me of the free-ranging discussions at St. Olaf’s seminary. I asked him if he brought those ideas to his congregation. He told me he would not want to disturb their simple faith. He is no longer a Lutheran.

All those who focus on all the faults of the past, better prove they're better than our forebears by denouncing & forfeiting all the benefits that we all enjoy & make use of now due to that past !
If they don't then they're morally no better than those whom they denounce !

Dear David F.,

Thank you so much for your thoughts. You always add so
much to each discussion. When my mother died just a few
years ago, I was at a loss. She was 96 years old. And
the most comfort that I received was from a Rabbi who
didn't know me and I didn't know him - but we started to
communicate online. He helped me so much during a difficult
time. We still communicate today.

I am reading responses with great interest.
To the best of my belief, throughout history people have been told to 'know thyself'.
They are never told how to do this however.
But if it is a viable way forward, it should be possible?
So ran my thoughts, and I conjectured that one would just need to start somewhere, anywhere, with the simplest of questions about life.
I did.
As the years rolled by I dissected and examined many things I had been taught whilst growing up.
I found they did not stand up to examination.
One by one those 'pillars of normality' fell over.
So my outlook changed dramatically.
What I had been 'taught' about religion faded rapidly.
Replaced by what I feel is a much healthier outlook on life.

I must be doing something right.
When those around me are running around like chickens without heads, I seem to keep a steady gait, and stay calm and ordered.
I can stand back and view myself as one of our human species. (yes, I am one)
I can see that my thinking was right off the rails when I was much younger.
I see the faults I have now, and I endeavour not to inflict them on others.
I see good points about me too.
I can see clearly that a restrictive religious approach would never have allowed me to grow as I have.
I think I am comfortable in my own skin, and realistic in my outlook on life.
I am glad I had the nerve to 'think outside the box'.
My sense is that, in one way or another, I contribute quite a lot to those who live near me.
And these days I see a religious approach to life as something quite horrific.
It is not at all as some would have you believe.
Words like 'nasty' and 'controlling' come to my mind.
But I calmly accept that another person might find benefit from their religious slant.
I do not try to change their ideas.

I guess - it's the person that you are that matters.
It's what you feel inside that counts. And how you
relate to others.

Indyvidual writes Wednesday, 19 October 2022 9:00:06 PM:
"All those who focus on all the faults of the past, better prove they're better than our forebears by denouncing & forfeiting all the benefits that we all enjoy & make use of now due to that past !"

Separating your past's "benefits" from all those advantages accruing to humankind that arose despite your past's influence over the minds of so many is the business of history and science and could not be smothered.

That your past left so few free to exercise intellectual curiosity unfettered is an unerring indicator of how tenacious is the human pursuit of truth, our determination to reach closer approximation of it or the determination to try harder in the face of adversity.

"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity has made them good."
Henry Louis Mencken (September 12, 1880 – January 29, 1956)

I was raised as a devout Catholic by my mother. I was an altar boy and heading for the priesthood at 18. So, I studied religiously. And learned how much the pagan sun worshiper Constantine had changed so much of Christian practice none of which proceeded him.

Before him and his appointed lackies there was no sacrifice at the altar. No bread and wine ceremony, no Church marriage and no confessional.

Marriage as a church institution is a little more than 300 years, the confessional a little over 700.

Today's church has so little in common with early esoteric Christianity as to be 2 entirely different belief systems.

Needless to say, I no longer attend church services.

Any belief system that has a leader that cannot err is not a religion, but rather, a cult!
Alan B.

What do sin and zero have in common?
Both are imaginary.
Neither of them exist as a quality or quantity.

Religion, as far as I can see, is a dictatorship.
Thinking is controlled to the point where imagination cannot be used to change daily life.
There is no room to express a reasoned argument against a particular directive within religion.
It is democracy which has freed up thinking, and allowed great advance.

Past civilisations, where religion ruled everyday life, didn't really get very far.
They had potential, but that was it.
And I would not like to live in a place where dictatorial religion controls government.
Would you?
As with all dictatorships, the principles of religion won't stand up to serious scrutiny.
In the end, it all comes down to control and money.

So for those who like living life as a 'follower', who like to 'donate' to a pseudo government, please go on doing so.
You will probably be happier that way.
But you must recognise that many others don't share your views.
Modern communication allows us to have input from almost the entire world, and knowledge is expanding in the community,
As a result, people are beginning to walk their own walk, and they do so in a thoughtful way.
I for one think this is much healthier, and closer to being ideal.

My normal approach in life is to avoid shining a light on the inadequacies of others.
I prefer instead to illuminate a better path forward.
In the above text I can see I have deviated from this principle.
But at my age, I think I can be a little lax sometimes.

Alan,
Which belief system has a leader that cannot err?

Ipso Facto,

Try getting anywhere without zero.
Zero is one, if not the greatest, of all discoveries.

As I see it....
What we think of as zero cannot exist.
In reality, it is a position in time?
And as everything is in motion, it never stays in one place.
It cannot be 'pinned down'.
If we visualise MOVING from positive quantities through to negative quantities. we can imagine there being a 'crossover' point?
That is zero for us, and we can PASS by or through that (imaginary) point.
But we cannot stay there.
We cannot get a foothold.
In mathematics, a zero point exists only in this intellectual sense.
It is not a physical amount.

Dear Ipso Fatso,

You stated: “What we think of as zero cannot exist.” With as much truth one can say “What we think of as three cannot exist.” Both zero and three are abstractions. Neither zero nor three is a physical amount. If zero and three designate points on a line one has as much reality as the other. However, we can think of zero sheep as well as three sheep. I have zero sheep in my house. The previous sentence has a clear meaning. Negative numbers can also have meaning with or without assigning them to real quantities. I have -3 dollars means that I owe 3 dollars.

I love numbers and the mystery that surrounds them. The primes, rationals, irrationals, transcendentals, the prime pairs, perfect numbers, different orders of infinity etc. I am reading “The Theory of the Riemann Zeta-function by Titchmarsh. It explores the conjecture that all non-trivial solutions of the function lies on the line z = -1/2.

Mathematicians have worked on the conjectures and have made approaches to proving it. So far no one has come up with a proof. It may have no practical explanations if it is proved, but it is great fun.

If the digits of a number add up to 3 or 9 or a multiple of three or nine it is divisible by 3 or 9. That's one entertaining number fact.

You may enjoy A Mathematician’s Apology by G Hardy.

"A Mathematician's Apology is a 1940 essay by British mathematician G. H. Hardy, which offers a defence of the pursuit of mathematics. Central to Hardy's "apology" — in the sense of a formal justification or defence (as in Plato's Apology of Socrates) — is an argument that mathematics has value independent of possible applications. Hardy located this value in the beauty of mathematics, and gave some examples of and criteria for mathematical beauty. The book also includes a brief autobiography, and gives the layman an insight into the mind of a working mathematician."

Error in previous post.

It should read:

It explores the conjecture that all non-trivial solutions of the function lies on the line z = 1/2.

I’ve got $10 that says Zero has meaning.

Dear Is Mise,

You've proved the statement. The 0 in 10 gave it meaning. One of the meanings of zero is that its position in a number changes the value of a number.

I must admit to a very slight amount of 'tongue in cheek' when I posted before.
However, what I said is correct.
Zero does not exist physically.
It is a useful mathematical concept only, as is the square root of minus one.
As all matter is in motion, zero exists as an instant in time rather than anything else.
And even then, we cannot have such a small increment of time.
So zero is in trouble?

Because we cannot express all values exactly, I cannot help but wonder if there is another form of mathematics which has so far eluded us.
My tentative title for it is 'inside out mathematics'.
Our present system matches up with it a lot of the time.
And then our system seems to be correct.
But just as often it is unable to express an exact amount of something.
There must be an explanation for this oddity.

Long ago I found that the best way to learn a subject was to take one fact about it, and pursue that one fact only.
In the process, one of necessity read about many aspects of many other things.
And so knowledge flowed in in a friendly and acceptable way.
It doesn't matter that the first fact is doubtful, as it might well be discarded along the way.
But start somewhere you must, however odd the starting place.
I allow myself to think of odd things in odd ways.
Restricting one's thoughts to the plain and ordinary is not the way to go.