Not to mention environmental and social cohesion issues.

Voting against a "Big Australia" is the only thing that has decided my vote for the last 10 years. Unfortunately, both major parties are all for it. There is no choice on this issue and the politicians won't even let the question be asked.

"No matter how much we borrow and build, Australia continues to resemble a dog chasing its own tail when it comes to infrastructure provision."

Never were truer words written, and they will be true in Australia as long as the mania for mass immigration continues. Australia and Australians are really suffering in many ways, thanks to mass immigration and politicians who are listening to the wrong people.

400,000 extra people every year. Ye Gods! And, how crazy (and impractical) is the idea of sending immigrants to the barren, bush-fire ridden bush, to cause even more bushfires and and red dirt blowing away! And no jobs, either, Australia having been de-industrialised by gutless politicians kowtowing to the unelected UN way back in 1975 with the Lima Declaration. Take particular notice of the complete about face of our Big Australia Prime Minister on this one. What a bunch of lying, all-over-the-place bunch of critters Australian politicians are.

William Rutan writes that "Australians (need to) make more of an effort to hold their political leaders to account". But how do we do that when the only two parties capable of forming a government are in lockstep with each other on a Big Australia; and it's killing us.

I tend to agree that it is elites showing off to each other. Visual media seems to be skewed towards presenters with English as a second language. What about using some of the 722,000 people on Newstart? It's total GDP that grows with immigration not per capita GDP. That flatlined or sometimes downward pointing metric says that Australia has enough people. God forbid the problems with 30 or 40 million.

I also suggest that foreign student education is partly an immigration scam. 25% apply for permanent residence apparently. They have to experience rural hardship by working a year in one of those well known outback towns Perth, Hobart or the Gold Coast. Other guest workers (formerly Section 457) become permanent along with relatives. Dare I suggest some 'refugees; don't integrate well yet strangely take trips back to where they were oppressed.

To a large extent, the reverse is true: population growth will make building more infrastructure more affordable; more demand will always strengthen the financial case for it. The problem is there has been far too little provision for future infrastructure - and with no infrastructure corridors reserved, everything can get built over - which will send costs sky high.

Probably the most sensible essay to appear on this forum for a long time.
There are just TOO MANY PEOPLE, not only in Australia but on the Earth itself.
However getting two humans to agree on about anything is almost impossible so the prospects of getting the, rapidly increasing, global population to agree is very unlikely.
As Sir DA said "humans have overrun the Earth".
Hanrahan was right.

It's much cheaper to live without children. Strange how millions of religious Australians haven't figured that out. Maybe they just don't care.

"It's much cheaper to live without children. Strange how millions of religious Australians haven't figured that out. Maybe they just don't care."

Not having kids allowed me to happily retire at 50.

Aidan, what do you propose we do when we run out of space to grow wheat, raise livestock and build high-rise condos?

I hope your answer isn't "have more kids."

Well, when your economy is almost totally reliant on population growth and housing development because policy decisions by the economically illiterate have trashed what once was a manufacturing economy what can you expect?

And attempted to also trash any examples of cooperative capitalism on an idiotic ideological imperative. Look at our emptying out regional and rural centres.

And as a consequence of government decisions that have focused on political outcomes rather than the actual national interest! And decision making, not alleged capital city population pressure.

For years elections have always been proceeded by the contemplation of rapid rail and deferred on rank political grounds alone. And to prop up the profits of cronies in the airline industry and airport price gouging by fellow travellers.

And by politicians that have made negative gearing and special capital gains tax exemptions etc/etc for the privileged more important!

The infrastructure deficit is down to planning, not population pressure! If it were we could simply say to more recent immigrants, go back where you came from!

The current management template is the problem, not recent arrivals many of who have been our most industrious and productive citizens! That said there is a way of correcting this and requires first and foremost the removal of self-imposed and asinine limitation and useless appendages, i.e., state governments!

The one tier of ultra-costly and completely unnecessary tier of government. Without these economic albatross hanging around the nation's economic neck, 70+ annual billions could be realised for infrastructure! And some of this infrastructure will require skilled guest labour! TBC.
Alan B.

AyameTan,
How many millennia would that take? Australia has no shortage of space; it's water that's the limiting factor.

On some of Alan B's point I concur. Planning in Australia is always behind. Our politics has lost its capacity to think beyond the next newspol. How can anyone plan ahead with that mind set.

We need to step back and review where we are and where we want to be. Can't believe I am saying it, but we need a "Limits to Growth" type review, but not like the original which was basically a left-wing globalisation approach.

Re Government structure. We have too much and 3 layers is inefficient. Whether its remove state gov or merge state and local into regional bodies(perhaps natural catchment based) with one Federal government that's open to debate.

Ps Terry Jones (Monty Python) rest in piece and thanks for all your unique humour.

Aidan, are you aware that much of central Australia is nothing but desert?

It is all very simple. We know how much water is required per day
average per person. We know how much average rain falls in our
catchment, we know how much we can afford to supplement.
Divide it by the amount of water. If the result is too many people
make the excess leave, if not then you know by how many you can
increase the population.
You can apply that to other factors also.
Surely that is the fundamental calculation needed.

Previous governments built most of the countries infrastructure which logically proceeded housing development! Not following it as now which is responsible for all the bottlenecks and congestion. Adding trains to the mix is absurd unless there are far more adequate parking buildings at rail stops! And if properly conceived can straddle rail lines on crown land, so there is no obligation to purchase more land!

Critical infrastructure is mostly water and energy and endlessly deferred by those whose intellectual limitations can't proceed without foreign investment and foreign ownership or control. I mean when was the last power station built and by who? the last dam? The last pipeline?

We sell mountains o iron ore and coal but not so much steel, which could be made here from current iron and coal exports if our water and energy still be!onged to us. But like everything touched by the economic illiterates, squandered for rank political outcomes alone and more recently on steroids!

We need to once again become a nation that makes and build things! And we need a tax zonal system that move the jobs out to the regions and rural communities! And to that end, we need to transition away from coal and towards nuclear-powered microgrids! And deionisation dialysis desalination plants for guaranteed surety of both affordable energy and water at a local level.

If the jobs Schools and hospitals are out there then the commute can end or head the other way and with that change, population pressure ends. And enormously assisted by the endlessly deferred rapid rail!

What previous generations built and paid for with less manpower and money! We can also do if we stop parroting the risible rubbish that government has no business in business and needs to be rewritten as incompetents have no business in business!
Alan B.

And most of or pollies some of who have presided over outcomes, need to be gone and back where their obviously limited management skills suitable as Caretakers and abolition cleaners?.

Maybe they just don't care.
Ayame Tan,
You should put that to the billions of Africans, Asians & Central Americans whose children are starving & dying en-masse.

AyameTan,
Are you aware of what happens in the desert after it rains?

No, Individual. They do care. They're just duped by the Catholic Church.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/christianethics/contraception_1.shtml

"The Church forbids sex outside marriage, so its teachings about birth control should be understood in the context of husband and wife.

The Roman Catholic Church believes that using contraception is "intrinsically evil" in itself, regardless of the consequences. Catholics are only permitted to use natural methods of birth control.

But the Church does not condemn things like the pill or condoms in themselves. What is morally wrong is using such things with the intention of preventing conception. Using them for other purposes is fine - for example, using the pill to regulate the periods of a woman who is not in a sexual relationship is not wrong."

Bazz, it's about more than water. We need fertile soil to grow crops for the future, not just for today or this year.

Aidan, are you aware that rain is very rare in the desert? Are you going to wait for rain before you drink water?

AyameTan,
If it had more rain, it wouldn't be desert!
Have you failed to notice water can be piped?

And returning to your original comment, the one thing religious Australians have in common is the recognition that some things are more important than money.

____________________________________________________________________________________
individual,
There aren't "billions of Africans, Asians & Central Americans whose children are starving & dying en-masse".

Two thirds of Australia is uninhabitable, and it will always be uninhabitable. Talk about getting water to deserts is absolute rubbish. It's not going to happen. For heaven's sake! Isn't this article about an inability to deliver infrastructure in the populated areas? Talking about 'watering deserts' is total BS. We don't need it.

Aidan,
Yes they just about all believe in some mythological sky pilot who can perform miracles

'No, Individual. They do care. They're just duped by the Catholic Church.'

As someone who has little time for the Roman Catholic church I am amazed at the haters of that church. You would think anyone who is anti life and anti procreation would have something to say about Islam, polygamy etc. Intead they can't help themselves. They push their own ideologies of hatred that are irrational at best.

There aren't "billions of Africans, Asians & Central Americans whose children are starving & dying en-masse".
Aidan,
So, these images we're seeing on the media are just fake News ? Would you still quibble if I'd said hundreds of millions ?
My concerns are about real peoples' sufferings, your's appear to be mere pettifogging !

Aidan and any other Cornucopian growthists should take a look at this world map of soil quality and resilience from the US Department of Agriculture, with particular attention to Australia.

https://external-preview.redd.it/I9JOdIxObBEM5iiuzM5ZIhQ-eSrjbVeheHbXXxak_9o.jpg?auto=webp&s=4faa27de6bd85c81f3ee34ab33c461c3c1de8ccb

Water is very heavy and incompressible. Piping it hundreds of kilometers (maybe after desalinating it), a lot of it up a gradient, to places that have poor soil and ferocious evaporation rates is worse than pointless.

Instead of wanting to cram in the maximum number of people on the minimum standard of living, we should be aiming for a population low enough that everyone can have a good quality of life, in a healthy environment where the other species can live as well.

I don't worry about what party can form government. I just put the major parties and any other Big Australia candidates last, with the sitting member last of all. Once enough of the politicians start getting their snouts kicked out of the trough, their parties will adopt more sensible policies. Their rich mates can give them money, but they can't force you or me to vote for them.

Fixed the link.

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/soils/use/?cid=nrcs142p2_054011

Enlarged map:

http://external-preview.redd.it/I9JOdIxObBEM5iiuzM5ZIhQ-eSrjbVeheHbXXxak_9o.jpg?auto=webp&s=4faa27de6bd85c81f3ee34ab33c461c3c1de8ccb

ttbn, you can't water deserts, That's probably news to the Israelis. It's folk like you with no knowledge of how these things could be done, are who prevent it being done! Not the relatively simple engineering.

The Kalgoorlie pipeline would be impossible now but when it was built by our forebears, a done deal!

Our current crop of useless pollies couldn't build the snowy mountains scheme because like ttbn they know for sure and certain these things can't be done!

Only two things prevent us watering a below sea level desert and that is visionless prevaricating (photo op) pollies and the robber barons now controlling the price of energy and the permitted paradigm

Energy for less than a cent PKWH, i.e., nuclear waste burning MSR would allow us to put space-age desal anywhere we dam well like! And from an inexhaustible source.

As for the cost well there'd be a charge for the water and the rest would come from the annual billions we'd earn as the world's premier repository for nuclear waste. which in MSR is just largely unspent fuel that could power this nation and the world for a thousand years and beyond.

The cost isn't a factor, money has never been cheaper and energy can only grow dearer! except for us, if we embrace the proposal. Not saying we could do this overnight but in a similar timescale to a completed Snowy mountains scheme flaws and all!

The lead time won't ever shorten by the brain dead deferrals of the past and if the recent firestorms don't tell you we need to put water on our inland nothing will!

Time to end the moribund prevarication and just get on with it and with bipartisan sanity!
Alan B

Water on deserts doesn't need to be only desal but could include nutrient-rich effluent. Add a few trace elements like those removed by thousands of years of burning and you can grow anything,

Broad-scale irrigated agriculture is part of the climate change solution/adaptation we need to survive and wherever deserts are turned into the granaries they one were they also become CO2 sequestering sollutions we need!

We just need to deal out the robber barons and their spit lickle servants/pollies! ttbn we can't build snowy one or put a man on the moon and if man were meant to fly he'd grow wings! All impossible before and since in closed minds, mate!
Alan B.

We just need to deal out the robber barons and their spit lickle servants/pollies!
Alan B,
You forgot the average Australian who doesn't want to move a finger to make the pollies etc accountable or heaven forbid, help the decent ones !
There are people who demand the rest of us pay for them to do nothing but they refuse to get behind a National Service scheme !
It should really be; No National Service-no benefits. If Mummy & Daddy don't like the idea they can keep them & stop demanding we pay !
Those who cost us hundreds of thousands if not millions of Dollars because they can't keep off drugs should be given an ultimatum, National Service or no treatment ! A few months out in a Bush camp & some exposure to discipline will see them off the drugs. Also, many unwanted teen pregnacies would be prevented too. It'd only take two or three months for them to come around where they start thinking for themselves & start to be responsible.
Many Centrelink officers could be made to become responsible also & as their workload lessens they could become more employment agency orientated.

Why the hell would you want to spend billions watering inland deserts.

Alan, Israel is not much bigger than greater Sydney, & offers no comparison.

There are 10s of thousands of acres of good arable land between Brisbane & the boarder. It would be easily & cheaply watered with some dams on the rivers flowing through it.

Why isn't it used for a lot more productive agriculture than running a few cows, & pet horses? Because it is just not profitable producing food in Oz. It is a huge gamble growing produce, when you don't know what price it is likely to bring at the precise moment yours is ready for market.

People are going to have to pay a lot more for Oz grown food, or see the growth of food imports grow just as quickly as all manufactured goods imports have grown.

It has always amazed me that we don't have a railway line, running from the Queensland coal fields to WAs iron ore precinct, carting coal one way, & iron ore the other. We should have 2 large steel producing areas, one on each side of the country, but then, I suppose our wage structures make it impossible.

Runner: what could be more anti-life than encouraging people to have children they can't afford or have the time to look after? That's what happens when the Catholic Church lies about contraception.

Aidan: do you know how many billions of dollars and years of effort it takes to pipe things thousands of kilometers?

Not only are you economically and logistically illiterate, but you're politically conservative as well. That worries me. Are you seeing a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

Removing baby bonuses would curb births to great extent ! Making fathers support their children too would help.
Migrants with more than three children need not apply !

I'm against the baby bonus. It's the dumbest economic "incentive scheme" I've heard of.

Thanks William Rutan, Very well done.

Hasbeen,
The railway proposal you mentioned is known as Iron Boomerang. It may yet get built but it probably won't be. It's more efficient using sponge iron to make steel, and that doesn't use so much coal.

_________________________________________________________________________________

AyameTan,
I probably know a lot more about logistics than you do. As for what it takes to pump water, that depends on many factors including the diameter of the pipes, the distance, the amount of water needed etc.

If you think I'm saying that it's practical to pump he amounts of water across Australia, you've missed my point completely. What I'm really saying is that even when you try to discredit my argument by taking it to absurd lengths, you fail.

I'm not going to take offence at your accusation that I'm a political conservative, but I expect some of the political conservatives on this board would. Is there any objective reason for your lumping me in with them? Or is it just that you disagree with me.

All right, Aidan. What were you implying? Please be specific. No one likes someone who rambles on the witness stand.

No need to pump water, just divert the flow where it only needs a few sticks of Gelignite !
In fact, anywhere there is excess run-off water should be pooled so it can filter into the aquifers.
Ponds should be as deep as possible instead of shallow with large surface area to reduce evaporation. Wherever possible, houses could be built on top of their own water reservoir which could double as the foundation. This would hold enough water to last almost a year.
There is enough water it's just that way too much is wasted now via excess run-off !

Care to explain how your proposal would work, Individual? Are you going to tax the rich more intensely or make workers work even harder for less money?

AyameTan,
Everyone earning over $1 million/year 1% common Infrastructure Levy, anyone over $500 Grand/year .5% IL, anyone over $100 Grand/year .2%IL & anyone above $50 Grand/year .1% IL.
Below $50 Grand no IL.
The bulk of such work could easily be done by a Civil Force i.e. National Service under supervision of experienced Civil Engineering workers. Catering could be provided by people from the nearest Community also. There's absolutely no reason for Govts to baulk at funding for the future at less cost than what can be saved from less crime & welfare. All it requires is the will from everyone to support such a service.

1% for someone earning a million dollars isn't going to do much. It's just $10,000. To them, it's pocket change.

Would you be willing to levy that charge on politicians? Many of them earn that much. More if you consider fringe benefits.

And physical labor often leads to injuries. Which means MORE taxes to pay for it all. Fail.

AyameTan,
May I suggest less sugar with your Nutri Brain in the morning ?

That had nothing to do with what I just posted.

And physical labor often leads to injuries. Which means MORE taxes to pay for it all. Fail.
Ayame tan,
This is exactly the mentality that a National Service would be a guaranteed cure for !

How will working in the National Service for a few years reduce the risk of injury?

Hand-eye co-ordination decreases as we age.

Organized crime is cheaper and easier than going to college. My cousin Wendy gave all her money to organized crime when she was diagnosed with cancer. About 50 million USD in total.

Hand-eye co-ordination decreases as we age.
Ayame Tan,
At 18 ? Have you ever heard of the phenomenon called learning ? Such as learning a skill by enhancing natural aptitude etc ?
Although I do wonder at times when I look at young people walking without taking their eyes off the phone & oblivious to common sense.
There is a mentality deficit, particularly but definitely not limited to those on the Left with
Indiscriminate breeding being one of the side-effects. A National Service would rapidly bring enlightenment to that Demographic.
Try to work out what you're good for & let us know !

Individual, what does that have to do with what I said? It seems that YOU are unwilling to learn. Like many conservatives (and religious folk).

"IT is not surprising that profound changes occur in the human perceptual-motor system with advancing age. Declines in the visual, proprioceptive, motor, and central nervous systems have been documented in earlier studies (Bondareff 1985; Fozard 1990; Kenshalo 1977; Spirduso and MacRae 1990). As an important perceptual-motor function, eye-hand coordination is not spared from the effects of aging; examples of age-related modifications of this function include delays in reaction time and movement time, decreased accuracy in reaching–aiming movement, decreased steadiness in the nonpreferred hand, decreased manual dexterity, and reduced speed in writing digits and words (Birren and Botwinick 1951; Chaput and Proteau 1996; Miles 1931; Welford 1977). Because these studies focused on age-related changes in eye-hand coordination under undistorted visual conditions, their scope is limited. Human eye-hand coordination is characterized by a remarkable ability to adapt to sensory modifications (Held and Freedman 1963; Welch 1978). When exposed to an optical distortion, individuals quickly readjust their eye-hand coordinative patterns and function normally under such a new visual environment. Such adaptability has been documented in a plethora of studies on prism adaptation (Harris 1963; Hay and Pick 1966; Held and Hein 1958; Helmholtz 1925; Redding and Wallace 1993). However, because the majority of studies were conducted on younger adults, it is not clear whether principles thus derived can directly extrapolate to older adults (aged 65 and over). To date, little information is available about how aging may affect adaptability of the perceptual-motor system."

https://academic.oup.com/psychsocgerontology/article/55/3/P151/607083

what does that have to do with what I said?
Ayame Tan,
Everything ! Who was actually talking about old people ? You ! I'm interested in getting the young morons, druggies & otherwise useless off the street & expose them to alternatives !
Young people need guidance & hope not indoctrination with saturation pessimism !
Their parents have failed because of "democratic freedom" & "individual Rights" being pushed by academic social "experts" & we really don't want the next generation get as bad, do we ?
We can't afford any more hangers-on breeding more hangers-on.

Most retirees don't work full-time. Are they "worthless" in your eyes? I hope not.

Young people need QUALIFICATIONS to get decent jobs.

Thank you for showing your true colors. You only care about your own civil rights. Just like a typical conservative.

Most retirees don't work full-time. Are they "worthless" in your eyes? I hope not.
Ayame Tan et al,
National Service is not for old people, it's for young unemployed either homeless or aimless !

This is one reason why I hate conservatives. You have the reading comprehension of a trained baboon.

Who cares how old they are? If they're not working, they're not contributing to society.

Let me put it this way: would you rather have them working in the army for 3 years, or studying engineering or architecture for three years?

Because the latter is much more productive in the long run.

would you rather have them working in the army for 3 years, or studying engineering or architecture for three years?
Ayame tan,
Old people have already contributed so, that's why they retire & receive a Pension/Superannuation which they have already paid for throughout their working life.
Where did you get the Army idea from ? I'm talking about National service, not Military Service !
Ask your Grandfather to explain the difference.
Are you so thick that I have to spell it out AGAIN ? Any 18 year + old UNEMPLOYED should serve !
Also, I would only let them study if they have the aptitude. Someone with your mentality & grasp of things would be way better off to get exposed to reality instead of going to one of those dream factories !
After all, most Uni graduates only turn out to be a nightmare for the rest of us !

You missed the point. I'm talking about 18-year-olds. Do you think they would be more productive if they spent three years in college, or three years in national service?

Because it's impossible to do both at the same time.

When conservatives talk about national service, they are almost always talking about military service. It's not my fault if you're not specific.

Any 18+ unemployed? Up to what age? And is it their fault if their parents were abusive/neglectful and didn't give them a proper education? Of course not. Education is the responsibility of their parents and the government.

Which uni graduates don't you like? Please be specific.

Which uni graduates don't you like? Please be specific.
Ayame Tan,
Those who share your mentality ! You know the ones who are of no use to society, the ones that are commonly known as oxygen thieves !
No more debating with you, you're a waste of time & space here !

Oxygen thieves, eh? I guess that would include most politicians then. And CEOs. Most don't work 40-hour weeks.

Read this article, please.

"Admittedly, this was an election year. In 2015 the HoR sat for 75 days with only 290 days where their presence was not required.

Even when sitting, they only work a maximum of four days a week for two weeks, having every Friday, Saturday and Sunday off and, as we have recently seen, they feel no compunction about leaving early. In fact, Christopher Pyne has ordered that all eight exits of the Parliament be manned by a staffer to stop any Coalition MP leaving the house before the adjournment of business for the day.

On November 6 last year, the Courier Mail reported that Clive Palmer had “come to 84 of the 130 sitting days since he was elected in 2013.” Andrew Robb had missed 71 sitting days and Julie Bishop 22. Whilst they may have some excuse due to their portfolios, Bob Katter, who had missed 30, had no such excuse.

All of which begs the question as to why MPs are “entitled” to three annual inter-state business class trips provided for spouses and dependent children for “family reunions” ."

https://theaimn.com/hard-politicians-really-work/