Dear Loudmouth,

I have read your link to Gillian's paper. I must admit I found it difficult to get past the fact that this bloke is a bit of a rampant self-citing author. Perhaps once or twice but not 5 different papers. It is something that annoys the hell out of me.

Anyway his position, while interesting, is hardly mainstream but is rather unconventional, something he acknowledges early.

He states;

“The transition to agriculture was one of the pivotal developments in human prehistory, yet the reasons why some groups of hunter-gatherers—though not others—began to grow crops (with or without domesticated animals) remain unclear”

and then proceeds to assess his own theory;

“that production of textile fibres for clothing rather than food for human consumption was the primary factor”

Which then trips into this navel gazing;

“Insofar as Australia represents a test case for the textile proposal, these claims for indigenous agriculture in Aboriginal Australia represent a significant challenge to the argument. The purpose of this paper is two-fold: firstly, to consider whether these claims for ―agriculture in Australia may refute the textile proposal and, secondly, to critically examine the extent to which these recent reviews provide a more tenable explanation than the textile proposal for the paucity (if not total absence) of agriculture in Aboriginal Australia.”

So if he can't disprove Aboriginal agriculture, along with Pascoe, and Gamage, then his theory and earlier papers are rendered moot at best.

Seems like a pretty strong motivation to do so.

Try again mate.

SR,

Gilligan suggests that there is " .... paucity (if not total absence) of agriculture in Aboriginal Australia.” Bill Gammage (double-m) and Pascoe have asserted that there was agriculture. It's up to them to prove it. If you want to think that heaps of grass means that someone has cultivated the soil, planted and tended the crop, reaped the crop and stacked it, go ahead.

'Farming' means cultivating the soil in some way, disturbing it and loosening it to enable plant growth. It needs digging tools, perhaps weeding tools. It needs protection from animals and neighbouring groups, i.e. fences, especially when it is ripening. Harvesting needs sharp-edged harvesting tools. A harvest of tonnes of any product needs transport from the site of production to some storage area. Is any of that evident anywhere in Australia ? I prefer to accept Marx and Engels' interpretation, as in Engels' 'Origin of the Family, Private property and the State'. You probably have heard of it, Steele :). It's certainly worth reading.

Why are some people so eager to deny that Aboriginal people were hunters and gatherers ? Do they think that foraging doesn't actually give people much claim to any particular piece of land ? So, in order to lay claim to land, it has to be asserted that Aboriginal people did more with the land than just hunted and gathered over it. After all, in English Common Law, such rights to use land do not confer ownership, even today. Is that it ? Are Pascoe and Gammage et al. trying to assert claims for land ownership which are stronger than usufructuary rights ?

Of course, it depends how you define 'farming': but to define it to mean no-land-preparation, no-cultivation, no-till, no-fencing, no-protection, no harvesting with tools, and using the 'crop' ('gathering') when it is needed, is to define 'gathering'. No holding back the best grain for the next year's crop ? No storage ? No fences ? No organisation of labour ?

Yes, Aboriginal people, especially women, were gatherers. Do you want to deny that ?

Very intriguing.

Joe

You put me to shame Joe when it comes to patience. You have obviously devoted your life telling the truth on these issues only to come across those who choose ignorance because truth does not fit the narrative.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275020269_Sembiran_and_Pacung_on_the_North_Coast_of_Bali_A_Strategic_Crossroads_for_Early_Trans-Asiatic_Exchange

"New archaeological research at Sembiran and Pacung in 2012 ..to late 2nd century BC... .... However, three out of the ten plot close to a Prohear Cambodian gold ring inscribed with a horseman motif, which has been confirmed to be non-Southeast- Asian, . resembles inscribed gold, copper and bronze rings of Saka-Parthian (first century AD) levels at the site of Sirkap, in the Taxila region of Pakistan ."

Sembiran is a 2,000-year-old port on the north coast of Bali so logically the Pakistan goods came by ship.

We can suppose that Loudmouth and runner refuse to read the books they deny .

NNNick,

Why do people think it was so easy to switch from foraging to farming ? Farming needs a hell of a lot of long-term planning, preparation, etc., time which foragers can't really afford to spend. Perhaps there was a common stage between the two, of mixed foraging and pastoralism (as a form of foraging), perhaps at first following, then pasturing herds of amenable animals (using dogs?), then penning animals, especially fibre-animals like sheep and goats and alpaca. Then growing crops to feed the animals for their wool or fur or hair. Makes sense in colder climates.

Why would anybody farm plant crops which are available everywhere naturally ? Why would anybody plant crops with very little nutritional value like kangaroo grass or muturuki roots ? Why would anybody plant crops without protecting them from neighbours and animals ?

Perhaps it occasionally occurred, that blokes would get up and ask each other, "So what are you going to do today ? Hunt or farm ? It's a good day for hunting." And the other blokes would say, "Nah, I think I'll give farming a go," while they clubbed a couple of bettongs scampering around their feet. How come there are no songs to bettongs ? There were maybe seven hundred million of the cute little balls of meat before 1788. Then off those blokes sauntered, to a likely patch of ground, with their little bags of specially-chosen seed, digging tools over their shoulders. And cleared the ground, loosened the soil, planted the seed, waited for the rains, then waited a bit longer for the crop to ripen, then got the women to go out with their harvesting tools, to cut the crop and bring it back in bundles to the village for winnowing. Then grinding and baking.

Yeah, that might make sense.

Nah.

Joe