Alan B, I note you lean towards a co-op style business. I'm sure it would have a place in certain types of industry. Not completely convinced it would work across all industries.

You unjustly malign the 'predatory investor'. In your eagerness to wave the workers flag you have completely discarded the most important person in the actual existence of the business.

You are quick to crush the 'indolent drone investor born to rule privilege'.

Now let me give you a quick lesson in business. These privileged people you hate so much, they put their lives and all their savings and assets and borrow on top of that so you and your mates can malign him for taking a chance.

Tell you what, you gather up this brilliant bunch of supermen and trot them down to the bank, tell them to put all they have, and what they don't have on the line then stand clear of the doorway.

Yes I thought so. It's easy to come in after someone has created something and just take over. It does not work like that. You and your mates have to accept that if you are not going to take the risk, you do not get to reap the rewards.

As an industrial designer I design products then in the early days I would set up the production and so on. Later I would do the same for third parties. On one occasion I enjoyed being a joint venture partner with the Malaysian govt.

As for Diver Dans comments about 457 visa's. I can tell you they are more capable than most Aussies. Why would we want them, even for free if they were not up to or above the par?

Instead of demanding more and more pay rises, which BTW is a direct cause of our failing manufacturing exports, you should be thinking of living within your income.

The fallacy of wage increases is at the very least, a Ponzi. At the very worst a definite depression starter.

To become viable again we need ALL the costs to drop. Not just wages.

The not so Liberal, not so democratic deceitful Senator Leyonhjelm, has no problem pulling a pay packet of around $200k p/a plus a bevy of generous lerks and perks on top. Supa at 15.4%, a host of allowances. Dose well does our Davo, for an unqualified bum.

A fat pay packet can be an incentive and a reward, but not if the taxpayer also has to give it to Senates resident slacker.