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The Forum > Article Comments > Castro a beacon and a warning > Comments

Castro a beacon and a warning : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 28/11/2016

All this aside, the threat of terror and assassination do not fully explain or fully excuse repression in Cuba.

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Castro, as the author has stated, will be remembered by most as a warning, this because of propoganda from the MSM.

On the other hand I will remember Castro as a man who held out against overwhelming odds from a much more evil empire, the US, the real empire with more blood on its hands since WW2 than Pol Pot, Nazi Germany and all those other pariahs we in the West fail to mention as a result of our continued colonialistic ways

Rest in Peace I say
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Monday, 28 November 2016 8:21:55 AM
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Seriously?

Castro ran a hard-line dictatorship where those who criticised were banished or killed.

If the best that could be said of him is that he was not as bad as Stalin, then that is saying little.

That the Batista regime may have been worse, doesn't absolve Castro from the repression he forced on the people of Cuba.
Posted by Agronomist, Monday, 28 November 2016 9:10:55 AM
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Castro was scum. He should have died long ago. Cuban-Americans are certainly celebrating his death, and so should everybody else.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 28 November 2016 9:34:06 AM
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This piece shows the depth of self delusion the left have to practice to be able to live with the evil of it's icons.

Surely some of the more intelligent lefties must know what rubbish they push.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 28 November 2016 10:38:27 AM
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Has-been ; The article points to the human rights abuses. Castro had his 'good side' and his 'bad side'. We should remember both. Castro persecuted dissidents terribly at times. That's not a model or example we should follow ; But when judging let's apply the same standards to the rest of the region. eg: Think of the civil wars in Nicaragua, El Salvador ; the genocide in Guatemala ; the death squads and assassinations ; the 'disappearances' of thousands in Chile. Think of US interventions in all those instances too. I can more readily accept the criticisms of Castro if those doing so do so even-handedly.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 28 November 2016 11:11:43 AM
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A friend of mine also pointed out that Castro severely harassed sexual minorities for a time. Which should also be considered in our evaluation.

Though apparently he apologised and repented of it later.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 28 November 2016 11:29:54 AM
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"Arguably his government was authoritarian..."
"All this aside, the threat of terror and assassination do not fully explain or fully excuse repression in Cuba. There have been extrajudicial executions ; Imprisonment of political prisoners, systemic harassment of critics."

Over time we have come to recognise Tristan Ewins as a Left nutter, but this apology for Castro takes the cake.

Castro indulged in "...extrajudicial executions ; Imprisonment of political prisoners, systemic harassment of critics..." How much of that is "arguable"? How much of this IS "explained" or "excused"?

If you're being tortured, imprisoned, murdered, does it matter that the perpetrator is "not as bad as Stalin". What an equivocal load of crap from Ewins.

And on what basis does Ewins claim that Castro had "overwhelming popular support", since any dissent would result in torture, imprisonment or extra-judicial execution?

Fidel Castro was a monster. Good riddance. I wish OLO would say good riddance to the likes of Ewins.
Posted by calwest, Monday, 28 November 2016 11:46:44 AM
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Calwest;

For the record, 'arguably' is not to deny harassment, imprisonments and extrajudicial killings. If I wanted to white-wash the issue I would not have mentioned that full-stop.

This is one of the most important passages in the article:

"as Rosa Luxemburg effectively argued in contrast to Lenin and Trotsky: human rights and democracy must always also be rights for those who dare to think and speak differently."

Cuba's 'one party take on democracy' has regularly mobilised great masses of the population. And physical popular mobilisations have regularly demonstrated the depth of support.

But as I argue - that's not good enough when it comes to the question of liberal and human rights. For the same reason I am at odds with Lenin , in that sense I would be at odds with Castro as well. I am a supporter of a liberal, pluralist and social democracy ; which is one reason why I identify with some of the works of Chantal Mouffe for instance. Castro made important social gains - but it does not justify the oppression.

I also identify with the left social democratic traditions which preceded Bolshevism ; and which parted ways with Bolshevism after World War I.

Calling someone a 'nutter' doesn't present any kind of argument. You're just depending on peoples' ideological prejudices there.

Yes I could have put more emphasis on Castro's transgressions.

But consider your own POV for a while first. Are you aware of what transpired in Central and South America in the 70s and 80s? And if so how could you condemn Castro without also condemning the US governments of the period ; and of its allies in the region? I can give you specifics if you want them ; though many are aware what happened in Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador...

That's not to excuse Castro's transgressions. But let's see if you can be consistent, here, and avoid double standards.

I suppose Graham accepts my articles because he is a genuine liberal pluralist. So am I - albeit one with a much different (left social democratic) take on the economy.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 28 November 2016 12:29:51 PM
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Tristan,

No level of equivocation or excuse-making justifies praise for Fidel Castro.

He was an authoritarian monster who killed many of his own people; many Cubans took the perilous route of escaping to the US, genuine refugees. Even if one accepts, for the sake of the discussion, your unprovable assertion that he and his regime were overwhelmingly popular among Cubans, there is no basis for anyone living in a western democracy to think well of him. "Overwhelmingly popular"? So what, if the alternative to support is death?

I'm also surprised that you quote Rosa Luxemburg in support of your arguments on Castro's behalf. Luxemburg, after all, said:

"Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the one who thinks differently."

So much for Castro's "overwhelmingly popular" reign.

If Donald Trump acted like Castro, you would be among the first to condemn him. In Castro's case, though, you excuse - at least in part - the imprisonment, the torture, the murders.

A little intellectual consistency would be a good thing for you to aim for.

Frankly, the socialist left has very little to be proud of. "Identifying" with the likes of Castro and Lenin - another serial murderer - is not going to win converts to your cause.
Posted by calwest, Monday, 28 November 2016 1:09:24 PM
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re: Popular support for the Cuban Govt: Here's an article showing over half a million mobilising in Cuba for May Day:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3568476/Havana-great-time-600-000-march-Day-Parade-presided-Raul-Castro-Cuba-pledges-revolutionary-anti-imperialist-ideals.html

As for Luxemburg - Yes that's exactly the quote I was paraphrasing. You cannot seem to understand that its possible to support the positive aspects of the Cuban revolution while also opposing the oppression. But its also intellectually and ethically dishonest not to consider the context of Western intervention. For instance: Communist Russia descended into Stalinism partly because that is the nature of the brutalising influence of Terror. We saw this in the French Revolution too ; on the Left we should have known better. Some people still haven't learned their lessons here. But the pressures of intervention led in this direction - and in that sense the blame is shared. The same with Castro.

But if Castro was a 'monster' - so too were Nixon, Kissinger, Reagan and Bush Snr and Jr. Again pls look into Chile, Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua. (I spare my use of the term 'Monster', however, because Stalin and Hitler truly stand out from the pack as the worst-ever examples ; and Castro had many redeeming aspects by comparison)

see this article by Chomsky: http://www.alternet.org/noam-chomsky-nuclear

and this article re Chile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

and re: Argentina: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

So after reading this material (presuming you WILL read it) I am hoping you might appreciate that despite Castro's transgressions, the transgressions of the United States and its allies in the region were worse. Hence the hypocrisy with much of their condemnation of Castro as 'totalitarian'.

And the likes of Pinochet has no redeeming features when it comes to the poverty unleashed by their economic and social policies. (which, unlike Cuba, did not occur in the context of an economic blockade)

I'm also hoping if you oppose torture that you keep in mind what happened at Guantanamo Bay ; and our pathetic response to the treatment of David Hicks.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 28 November 2016 1:45:12 PM
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Calwest you stated "If Donald Trump acted like Castro, you would be among the first to condemn him. In Castro's case, though, you excuse - at least in part - the imprisonment, the torture, the murders."

How about Hillary Clinton-as the US Secretary of State for just a couple of years was and remains responsible for the torture, murder and imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, Syria and Libya, the latter a country totally destroyed on false grounds resulting in the worst refugee migration since World War Two.

Really let's get some perspective in the conversation. I agree Castro was no Saint, but in reality he was a small fish in a big pond compared to many others.

Cheers
Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Monday, 28 November 2016 1:53:41 PM
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Interesting perspectives. I read it liking the fact that Tristan attempted to bring balance to the article. As to how well that balance was achieved, it's probably a matter of perspective but from my view far better than I'm used to in what is effectively political comment.

We may disagree on the balance but I think we would all do far better if more comment was able to address both the good and bad in things. So much has become polarised to the point where dialogue is almost impossible. At least here Tristan lay a framework where the detail and balance can be discussed rather than just an all good vs all bad pattern that goes nowhere.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 28 November 2016 2:08:33 PM
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Tristan,

Your equivocation, your post-truth whining cannot excuse Castro.

There is no "balanced" view of his career: he was a mass murderer. There is no logical way to offset the dead against his health and education programs, even if one accepts your propaganda that he had positive achievements in those areas. The dead don't have the luxury of left wing philosophising.

Geoff,

I'm not a Hillary Clinton fan. She was a catastrophe as Secretary of State - just ask the families of the diplomatic staff killed in Benghazi. I suspect that Donald Trump's gentle treatment of her since the election is because he realises she has been/is close to a mental break down. At the very least she'd have been the first overtly corrupt president of the US.

Having said that, I'm not sure that she or the US can be blamed for the destruction of Libya. That seems to have been the wish of the Libyans, who murdered Gaddafi at their first opportunity.
Posted by calwest, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 8:49:31 AM
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Calwest, you still have nothing to say about US client regimes in the region during the Cold War. I asked for you to consider what happened in Nicaragua, EL Salvador, Guatemala, Chile, Argentina. But you have nothing to say. You may see it as 'equivocating' to say 'there was a good side' to Castro's government. But you literally have nothing to say at all about what else was going on in the region during the Cold War. We're talking US foreign policy and US client regimes who 'disappeared' people, used death squads, imprisoned and tortured people, utterly ran roughshod over human and liberal rights. And failed to deliver prosperity as well.

I accept Castro committed transgressions against large numbers of his own people ; even despite having overwhelming popular support. I accept these were violations of human, liberal and democratic rights. But when I ask you to apply the same standards to others - including the US itself - you have nothing to say. Those kind of silences are the stuff of historic revisionism. So many people knock Castro and his legacy in the name of human rights - but Cold War crimes are 'remove from history' to validate the narrative that "liberal democracy won" ; that it was as simple as "democracy winning over totalitarianism". It was a hell of a lot more complex than that.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:28:15 AM
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" you still have nothing to say about US client regimes in the region during the Cold War."

They were bad.

What I want to know is how their activities somehow excuse Castro from killing his own people? Perhaps you might like to ponder an answer to that Tristan.
Posted by Agronomist, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 11:38:39 AM
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The point is that I accept Castro had his bad side ; I refer to his failings ; But this has to be viewed in context. The point is that much of the mass media is condemning Castro - but has nothing to say about the US and its client states during the Cold War. I am trying to give a balanced appraisal. But sometimes silence is as good as approval. When we condemn Castro but have nothing to say about the US and its client states we are aiding the prevalent historical revisionism.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:07:52 PM
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Tristan,

For left wingers like you, cultural relativity is a way of life.

Castro was a monster. There is no "balance", no "context" that makes OK the mass murdering.

End of story.
Posted by calwest, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:15:57 PM
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Those promoting and participating in the abortion industry demonstrate similar characteristics to Castro. That is why the left feel a kinship. with the mass murderer.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:16:13 PM
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Calwest ; "left wing" does not mean "cultural relativist" ; I accept that Castro's failings were real. Meanwhile you ignore everything I ask of you.

I wrote the following article many years ago: http://leftfocus.blogspot.com.au/2009/02/multiculturalism-and-false-lure-of.html
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 12:32:57 PM
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The average 2000 people per year who drowned were trying to trying to get from Cuba to USA not from USA to Cuba. The Iron Curtain, the Berlin Wall were built to stop people getting out of Eastern Europe into Western Europe. Walls were erected to stop people getting out of China to Hong Kong

Does that not tell you something? Are you stupid?
Posted by Old Man, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 3:05:47 PM
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Old Man ; It tells me some people were being oppressed and tried to escape ; at no point do I deny that. Some would have been agents of foreign powers ; but it would be too easy for the Castro government to say all or even most were thus. They used to say the same kind of thing about Communists in the West. (again sometimes true, sometimes not - generally not when you think of the communist reformers who opposed Stalinism)

It also tells me that people wanted to escape poverty - which really kicked in after the USSR and Eastern Bloc collapsed. Courtesy of the economic blockade.

I would be a critic of BOTH the old Western Bloc AND the old Eastern Bloc. Of course there was oppression in the East. Just like there was in the West. A long war about spheres of influence (including economic exploitation) and geo-political dominance or 'security'.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 4:05:26 PM
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The socialist left faction of the Labor Party in Victoria kept Labor in opposition federally for decades. Their successors are now in the process of destroying Victoria - perhaps even more successfully than Phoney Joanie.

And we can see Tristan Ewins as typical of them: he thinks that (relatively minor) improvements in education and very patchy improvements in health services in Cuba offset thousands of deaths, jailings, torture and the suppression of individual liberties by Castro and his gang.

He thinks that all of that should be forgiven because, hey, the US and its allies have done bad things too. No, Tristan, there is no equivalence.
Posted by calwest, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 6:51:19 PM
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