'Nick...if the ADF lasted 2 and a bit weeks with the PLA knocking on our doorstep I'd be very surprised ! Recent "scenarios" carried out echo similar exercises and projections done when the Townsville based Ready Reaction Forces (ODF) were set up in the early 1980's...also when NORFORCE was established. Along the line of the Nackeroos who preceded them in WW2, primarily to observe and report. All our war exercises were conducted with Indonesian Kopassus forces of the day in mind - around 25,000 + active troops as they were then.

The Brisbane Line (or should we say the Townsville to Carnarvon Line) is still very much in the back of the Brass Hats mentality today.

The farcical situation of one lonely submarine base stuck in the sand-hills off Rockingham WA is not a very bright strategic decision. The TMF on Garden Island is likewise easily disabled or severely damaged by lone wolf attacks and in 2013 not even a steel bollard stood between the mainland and the causeway onto the island.

Whoever they are, those mental Lilliputians being paid by our taxes to draw up strategic plans for Fortress Australia. The Chinese and Indonesians must surely be reading and re-reading the Defence White Papers. Yes, you guessed it - both nations recently invited over to witness our 'defence capabilities' on Ex's Predators Gallop and Night Falcon and rubbing their chins, saying something like..."How easy will it be with the US fleets preoccupied somewhere else...?"

As a young boy sitting in the Chiefs & PO's mess at HMA establishments: Kuttabul, Tarangau, Waterhen and at Creswell while my father and his shipmates sank schooners, I listened to the "Old Salts" say these words..."be wary, be very alarmed at the Indonesians...".

Perhaps we should now also be mindful of the Chinese expansionist mentality ?

The subs aren't even technically for us but for America to have greater capabilities to spy on China.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-13/dick-smith-questions-submarines-project-over-nuclear-power/7837946

"A Federal Government spokesman said the 'best experts' were involved in the Government's decision-making on the project. These submarines will be regionally superior. They will allow Australia to pursue our national and international interests and fulfil our role as an effective US ally," he said.

What exactly are our national and international interests btw and what exactly does the US expect from us as an ally?
Can anyone define this?

And what exactly are they going to do to save us when a fight they instigate breaks out with Russia and China?

I think our national interests would be better served staying away from the US.
I'd also like to know how we got suckered (who was paid off) into buying the overpriced junk F-35's...

Australia makes some pretty poor decisions in my opinion.
Our leaders are idiots.

Armchair..."our leaders are idiots". That makes us, the electorate, even bigger idiots for putting (or keeping) the recent crop of politicians in power.

Australia is the regional 'snail' foraging out into the wilderness of political uncertainty with its eyes on stalks. Only to encounter a threat and withdraw back into its shell until the US Intelligence community, via its mouthpiece in Washington DC, tells it to come out and play again.

BTW...the Torpedo Maintenance Facility on Garden Island, WA is actually a United States government installation, just like Guantanamo Bay and Subic Bay facilities were.

It has long been my belief that we should become like the Swiss, a 'neutral' country. Unfortunately we have lots of open spaces, lots & lots of stuff in the ground and under the sea beds within our territorial borders. A very small population mostly concentrated around the eastern shoreline and correspondingly a very small defence capability. All of which makes us vulnerable to an attack by any aggressor who chooses to.

The US administrations since WW2 have relied on us to supply cannon fodder for their imperialist policies, for if any Australian government were to deny them this, they simply threaten to remove the umbrella of protection. We see a continuation of the Coral Sea until this very day.

Some military historians argue that the Japanese Empire did not plan to invade Australia, so why then did they print vast amounts of money with the name "Oceania" (Australia) on them?

The 'aboriginal issues' would not be an issue today if the Japanese had in fact invaded, they would have been annihilated wholesale in the first 5 years of occupation. The Japanese would have run a pretty tight ship and today the nation of "Oceania " would most likely been a powerhouse economically and politically given the resources and land available.

Back to the thread...is it defence of our sovereign borders we are carrying out with submarines, or is it as Philip S suggests - just another contract to keep our politicians in beer and skittles post politics ?

Summarising you last Post, Albie.

The USA is telling Australia to by 12 submarines so that Australia can "spy" in China for them? I will leave that to the judgement of our readers as to the sense of that statement. And the USA uses Australian soldiers as cannon fodder for their "Imperialist" policies. So where is the American empire?

You asked that somebody should define what the USA expects from it's allies? The main thing that the USA expects from it's allies, is that we make some effort to defend ourselves instead of relying on the USA to do it for us. One reason why Americans will make Trump their next President is because they are sick and tired of being endlessly criticised by the very people they are defending. The Americans see something wrong with them spending 6% of their GDP on defence while their unreliable allies, who depend upon them, can't even maintain a promised 2% spending on defence.

You seem to be implying that the USA must be responsible for any war that breaks out in the South China Sea?

The South China Sea is International waters. It always has been, and everybody knows it. Even the Chinese leadership knows it. But China is an emerging superpower, and just like Imperial Germany, Nazi Germany, Imperial USSR, and Imperial Japan, it is making a spurious territorial claim backed by naked force. Nobody in human history has claimed an entire ocean as it's own territory.

WW2 saw the western democracies, especially the USA, caught with their pants down. But if China threatens to use military force to stake it's illegal claim, then it is in a bad position. France wants NATO to get involved in this. India just signed an agreement with the US Navy to use each others bases. The Japanese navy by themselves could take out the Chinese navy. And every small country with a border with the SCS is becoming friendly with the USA. Just like the USA in Vietnam, this new superpower is biting off more than they can chew.

I'll put my hand up. I'll not only imply that the USA must be responsible for any war that breaks out in the South China Sea, I'll openly state it that it is.
I'll also state the same thing for Ukraine, and M/E as well.

The US encroaches upon other nations it considers unfavourable.
The conduct regime changes; and arm and upgrade the military and missile capabilities of their allies.
This FORCES the unfavorable countries to respond countering the Wests moves.
The West then gets to work with its media spin proclaiming "Russian or Chinese Aggression" and that they are "Acting Provocatively" when the real truth is that the US themselves forced them to act.

Then, don't worry about the Chinese Islands, they don't move.
The US has also built it's own military Islands, but they DO move.
They're called Carrier Battle Groups, and what the US really wants is to be able to move them right up onto China's doorstep.

And at the end of the day it's still all about global hegemony.

All Wars Are Bankers Wars.
http://youtu.be/F29bNPN8FTE

In the 1990s the American dream was real with no commie or Islamic military able to resist. It even assured the Kremlin that it wouldn't march in while Soviet organisation was being deleted. But overwhelming power wasn't enough , it still was insecure. China wants to share the warm fuzzy glow but Obama refused as god blesses America not the Emperor of heaven.