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The Forum > Article Comments > Which road for a divided Liberal Party? > Comments

Which road for a divided Liberal Party? : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 11/7/2016

The argument goes something along the lines that because Turnbull abandoned the Liberal base he was punished accordingly. And that a more decisive Liberal victory would have been possible under Tony Abbott.

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The purpose of commercial debt is to enable wages to be paid to those
producing the "goods" before they are sold.
The purpose of housing debt is to enable shelter to be available long
before the family can pay for it.

Those forms of debt are essential but we seem to have gone off on a
frolic of borrowing to finance "entitlements" as they have become known.

A crunch is coming as now the Italian Banks are in trouble.
A while back Germany wanted to send accountants to the US's Ft Knox
to count its gold bars. They were told it was not convenient.
Next Germany asked for their Gold bars to be sent back.
They were told No not at this time.

It is thought that they might have been leased or sold multiple times.
The question is will Deutcher Bank just say nothing because if they
say the US has stolen them Deutcher Bank & Germany will be considered
bankrupt and the Euro will crash.
Now the above was just newspaper reports but no one denied it.
If it is true then everything we own is just pixel money.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 2:25:08 PM
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' Runner - if a welfare system can cushion people against 'the hard realities of life' maybe that's not such a bad thing? Not such a bad thing if people don't end up on the street and unable to feed themselves and their family if they lose their jobs... '

Who ever suggested that all welfare is a bad thing Tristan? The reality is that much welfare has been a disincentive for many to work. Whether it is generations of white hippies at Byron Bay or the Islamic men with a number of their wives collecting the dole so they don't have to work.

I have met many who spend the majority of welfare on drugs/alcohol and then use foodbank salvos etc to feed the family (if they are lucky). The socialist has set up a welfare system that encourages bludging. Try talking to some people who have come from other nations who can't believe how dumb our Government is.

Welfare should never be seen as an entitlement but as a way of giving a hand up not out. The socialist have created industries around giving out tax payers money.

btw calling the old age pension welfare is really an insult.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 2:27:11 PM
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Thanks Bazz,

I regret to some extent that I'm economics naive. But then I can't help but think there's something fishy about all of this stuff. Like if everyone's in debt, then who's got the dough?

There's some kind of scam going on here. It's a put and take thing. If nations are taking (debt), then someone's got to be putting and then wanting back (principle and interest), but who are they?

I think you're correct Bazz - it's pixel money, bits and bytes, and one day the scam is going to crash. It simply has to.

Whatever, maybe China and Switzerland have all the money. But go figure, China buys US bonds I believe. Doesn't sound smart to be buying stocks in debt. But like you say about Germany, one day maybe China will want they're money back and the US can't pay up. Now there's a recipe for serious global excitement - bang!

And Tristan, you ask, "Sweden might have about $200 billion in debt... But how much is private and how much is public? And comparing them to Australia - and in proportion - which is really better off?"

Well, in proportion, with Sweden having just 9 million population and Australia with 23+ million, debt per capita is probably less here than there. Just a guestimate.

Anyway, I don't want to be rude, but I won't be able to stay on line now. I've got to go and do some chores.

Thanks for all the info folks.
Posted by voxUnius, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 3:05:47 PM
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Thanks mac

Re: "The worst outcome for any Coalition government is to gain control of the Senate,..."

Fortunately the Coalition (of the Barely Willing) is very unlikely to gain control of the Senate.

Projecting from http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2016/results/senate/

Coalition - around 34 Senate seats
Labor - 30
But Cross Benchers - likely 12
(of that 12 all seem non-aligned and 6 are Greens while 6 seem center-rightwing-haven't settled their policies)

So Turnbull will hopefully need to argue most of his Big End of Town (take a) BET legislation.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 6:28:53 PM
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Yes I had thought of that already - that Sweden is less than half the (population) size of Australia. In any case the figures must look frightening to Runner. But the real issue is whether the debt is serviceable. That in mind - our public debt is not yet that bad by global standards. And whether gains to productivity etc from public investments are worth the cost of servicing that debt. Privatising infrastructure or just neglecting it is not the answer mind you.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 7:08:23 PM
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Also I don't see that the word 'welfare' should be taken as an insult - unless you're a right-winger who likes the idea of stigmatising and persecuting vulnerable people.

Yes most Aged people have paid tax their whole lives. But wait until the future - when most people will retire on superannuation. And watch it turn bad as the comfortably well-off complain about the 'burden' of paying for the Aged Pension. ALSO: Already the Aged are suffering as a consequence of oppressive user-pays for Aged Care - and the poor quality of that care.

other pensions include the Disability Pension, Student Allowance, Sole Parent pension, Newstart Allowance.

Newstart needs to be seen as a combination of unemployment insurance and a meagre 'guaranteed minimum income'. Even big business has recognised it is so meagre it actually impedes people from successfully looking for work.

The DSP is rigorously policed ; and for those who cannot find or hold on to regular work - it is crucial to those people, and to their carers. Arguably it needs to be more flexible. Also providing a Guaranteed minimum income to the genuinely disabled ; and supplementing incomes if suitable flexible work is found.

Sole Parents are much maligned by the Right l but raising kids/social reproduction can be hard work. Expectations that sole parents can hold down work and raise young families simultaneously is probably sometimes misplaced - and unfair to the kids involved.

Student Allowance is so low it forces students to supplement incomes with work ; But that can detract from focus on study itself ; increasing drop-out rates ; and the consequent waste of education resources.

There should be no stigma attached to welfare. It is a mix of compassion and social security ; mixed with the principle of social insurance and social wage payment. Welfare systems are signs of a more civilised and coherent society.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Tuesday, 12 July 2016 7:19:36 PM
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