Bernie,

Lets put aside the issue of whether a frugal eco-socialism is likely to be achieved. The question for you is, do you accept that global capitalism is a growth based system? It seems you do, because you assume that India/China must continue on their path of 'development'. But then, if so, how do you think the climate crisis can be addressed? If you accept Saral's analysis re the scale of the challenge and the limits of renewables, what is your alternative way of decarbonising the growth/capitalist economy? If on the other hand you agree with Saral that growth must be stopped and rich world economies contracted, what is your proposal for how that would work within actually existing capitalism? How could you do so, and maintain social stability? I would like to know.

Jonathan

Jonathan

Growth, in its many forms, be it population, economic or whatever,
IS THE PROBLEM.
There are no easy fixes.

Good question, Jonathon: Is capitalism a growth based system? Capitalism (or free market economics as I prefer to call it) is undoubtedly a growth based system for as long as the population of a nation or region have a standard of living that they - the people - believe is lower than what they desire. They will strive to achieve a higher standard of living (which demands that their economy grows) until they are satisfied with their lot, at which stage they will realise like the Japanese and many Europeans that they have enough. When most people in the world have reached this level of wealth, comfort and understanding, then maybe we can embrace an eco-socialist economic-political system but we are still 50 to 100 years away from that stage.

I think, yes, capitalism is growth based. Both capitalism and growth are basically Ponzi schemes depending upon more and more and more ad infinitum.
Humans, being greedy, will attempt to keep these systems going until, probably sooner rather than later, we will all collapse in a heap due to chronic overpopulation and complete Environmental destruction.
And that`s being positive........

ateday, recent history suggests that national growth can and does stop for a number of reasons. In Russia, the dismantling of the USSR brought tough economic conditions which caused a reduction in births which fed the economic downturn, now compounded by low oil prices. In Japan, a very wealthy and aging society stopped having children and refused to accept migrants, so their economy is stagnating - no growth. In southern Europe, e.g., places like Italy, an aging society combined with low birth rates, poor borrowing decisions by the government and the GFC saw their economy reduce - negative growth - only to have a large migrant population arrive across the Mediterranean over the last 18 months which will boost growth but with lower growth in North Africa where most of the migrants came from. So there are conditions which, once reached, will lead to a capitalist society reducing its population, with growth mainly in the services sector but not in raw materials including fossil fuels.

Bernie, the chinese set about to deliberately downsize their population with harsh penalties for those who didn't conform including mandatory sterilisation, yet in spite of that produced the fastest growing economy the western world has seen, and just by lifting folks out of poverty?

And all we've ever needed to do likewise here; only stopped by brain dead Ideologues, who somehow believe, if others are to have more they will have less?

Nothing could be further from the truth. And we have never needed either growth or foreign capital, which in truth just adds to our already enormous and growing foreign debt! And loss of the national estate!? of course we should access foreign capital, but sans the tax avoiding foreign capitalist who bring with them their profit demands, which in turn service the foreign borrowings. We have never ever used self terminating thirty year investment bonds, which raises foreign capital minus the foreign owner.

Or maybe we have politicians on all sides, who are just too dumb to manage some worthwhile public business venture, like say a patently visionary Lee Kuan Yu?

Today China is the second largest economy, propping up the once mighty American economy with trillions; which had a post war period of unprecedented prosperity, created on the back of applied keynesian economics, only to see it dismantled before our very eyes, by fundamentally flawed extreme capitalism, moronic conservatives and equally mindless reaganism and thatcherism.

Why, the minimum wage stagnated for thirty odd years, and the harvest would rot in the fields by for migrant workers and slave wages, all while the nation hands over many billions in the so called farm bill!

Not for nothing is it writ large, a fool never learns!

Decarb the economy to create the new, most successful and growing economy tat attacks poverty, rather than those afflicted by it?

Fat chance, given who leads us and their real masters?

And don't be conned into believing the other side will do much different or even re-embrace Keynesian economics or the period of unrivaled universal prosperity it alone ushered in!?
Rhrosty.