Excessive renewable energy chatter.

Firstly, the wholesale switch to renewables is not economics driven - essential for our planet. Economics will impact switchover efficiency, but must not hinder progress.

Renewables transition cannot wait for business profitability decisions.

Our planet's state reflects wholesale free market failure. For some large fossil fuel companies, the CO2 problems were fully understood decades ago, but the health of our planet was secondary to making profit.

The urge for profit has forever been sacrificing labor. However, harming our planet also harms profit makers. There is no escape. Healthy profit does not shield denizens of Beijing from pollution.

Secondly, many societal changes will be required. For example, the majority of domestic and business use of gas must shift to renewable electricity. Profligate energy uses in the West must dramatically reduce their energy use. We will need a much upgraded electricity grid. It will accommodate tens of thousands of small electricity storage units such as batteries in houses, electric cars, large business sized units, all able to be marshaled into delivering power to the grid as required. Large renewable installations distributed around the nation interconnected with high voltage DC power will ensure a calm Adelaide if offset by strong winds in Queensland.

Projects of such magnitude and complexity cannot be delivered in "must have vision of future profit before work begins" paradigm. They must be government projects with highly skilled and committed project teams. Modeled on Snowy Mountains Hydro? The projects must consider very large energy storage facilities, such as Snowy Hydro currently uses. Any spare electricity capacity, during a summer day, for example, should pump water to higher level storages. This water can drive large electricity generators as required. Calm weather - no problem.

Current issues with REC management cant be allowed to frustrate movement to renewables. The types of cut-through actions that are required are not feasible in a political environment. Decisions, designs, compromises must be made external to the political structures. We need an autonomous Renewables Infrastructure organization, responsible to, but not driven by, Government.

Other societal changes are numerous and ........

Well Tony 153, I think you are driven by fear of global warming.
It does not matter whether global warming is true or not.
There is not enough economically available fossil fuels to drive the
atmosphere like the IPCC & others believe.

We have to leave oil & coal before oil & coal leave us !
Your idea of an interconnector that support other states is fine as
far as it goes, but do you understand that it means every state must
be able to generate & store enough electricity to support say two other
states as well as itself ?
As far as building damns to store water that is fine but there are two
big catch 22s involved.
No one has been able to designated where it is possible to build those damns.
The Energy Return on Energy Invested on the earth moving needed to
build those damns has been calculated to be very poor, even if you
could find suitable places.
Oh yes the greenies won't let you build them anyway.
That is the third catch22.

Batteries for storage, are you kidding ? The resources needed to
build and maintain them as big enough to run a state is gigantic.
Also the charge/discharge cycle losses would rule most batteries.

Another thing you have overlooked i the multiplication of costs.
Once you start backing up other states and charging storage of
whatever sort you have to cater for x times a days capacity + 1
where x = number of overcast windless days.
That just multiplies up the cost by those figures.
Catch 22 number four.
To be practical where the blazers do you expect to get that much money
in a time of zero growth ?

Bazz
I do agree with your first statement - yes, I am very fearful of the AGW impacts today, and the worsening ones tomorrow.

Approximately 190 nations think similarly and have agreed on the need for urgent action.
If you disregard what our scientists are saying about tomorrow, and what our meteorologists and dozens of other branches of science are saying about today, your views and arguments have absolutely no value.

The world is now moving down the "lets find and implement needed solutions" path.

A few minor corrections on your contribution.

The eastern seaboard and SA have fully interconnected electricity networks and power flows freely between states. Vic and Tas are connected by undersea cable.

The Snowy Hydro system has been pumping water uphill for decades, using cheap power, then using that water to generate electricity when prices go up. There is potential for many dams to do the same.

You need to read more on battery storage and current trials in Australia and elsewhere. No need for giant batteries. Many thousands of small ones will do the same - with appropriate computer control.

Prior to second world war, the US spent less than 5% GDP annually on military. By 1945, about 45%. We need to do something similar to do what is needed

Tony you missed the point.
The amount of AFFORDABLE fossil fuel will decline FASTER than any
AGW CO2 program could implement.
That is why it DOES NOT MATTER about global warming.
Demand on energy sources is falling and with it CO2 emmissions.
That is why energy is so cheap now, oil $ 35 & coal at all time lows.

The interstate interconnectors as they are at the moment could not
support the whole of NSW for argument sake.
They would require a very large expenditure to raise their capacity.
Also the generation and storage capacity in each state would have to
be of a size to support the other states.
Do you understand that this cost is unsupportable.
You can tell this by the lack of finance to undertake the miniscule
projects that are at present on the drawing board.
The damn argument is over also, there just is not anywhere to put them
in the numbers needed.

Tony, it is all over now. We have almost certainly missed the
opportunity to put in a real alternative system.
Maybe we could build some nuclear power in time, I just do not know.

Bazz,
Not so.

Of all the known reserves owned by fossil fuel compsnies, only a quarter to one third can consumed to have any chance of constraining remperature rise to 2C. That is the worlds target. About three quarters must remain in the ground.

This means that the remaing third to one quarter will get very cheap, as many suppliers will want their product to be purchased within that quota.

Building necessary infrastructure will not be constrained by economics. What needs to be done will be done. No one will allow our world to be trashed because profit or productivity or efficiency metrics indicate non action.

Of course there will be many stupid people, but they will be vastly outnumbered by the sensible.

I am sure you can review your various statements on AGW and decide which camp you are in.

No stop & think;
The coal that you think will be burnt, will not be burnt.
Demand has fallen for all energy sources and the price with it.
If you can not afford to dig it out or drill for it you cannot do it.
The reason you cannot afford it is because it means you have to expend
more energy to get it than you get using it !

It is known as diminishing returns.
That is what has collapsed many empires etc including Rome.
You said;
Building necessary infrastructure will not be constrained by economics.

That is where you got it totally wrong, forget economics, this is about energy.
You are stuck in a business as usual era. You just can't get around
it by borrowing money to build the infrastructure.
If it takes more energy to build it than you get you go backwards.
Except is Australia the world's coal companies are no longer profitable.
Australia will not be far behind in becoming unprofitable with coal.

I agree all the above is a simplification but I had to simplify it
in an attempt to make it clear that everything has changed.

All the waffle that has being going on about the Paris conference etc
is just pointless. It is just not relevant to our energy problem.

It is all happening because the highest price that we can afford is
lower than the lowest price the producers can sell at.
There is no just right price for energy.
Goldilocks is dead !

Read this, it might help.

http://tinyurl.com/zk2c5ok