I must admit, I have never heard of Mondo Dolls. They probably came along well after I left school.

I have never found History to be boring. I was an avid reader from when I first learned to read. My parents brought a set of "Richards Topical Encyclopaedia." Volume 14 was my favourite. It contained;

Manual Arts. I an a Fitter, Turner, Boilermaker, Limited Electrical, Electronics & as a hobby I do Woodwork.

Games & Sports. I played Soccer, Hocky, Rounders etc

Fairy Tales. Great for all the Grand kids now especially if I add my own spin. ;-)

Fables & Stories. Wonderful stories of the bygone past with great meanings & life lessons behind them. Aesop, Beowulf, King Arthur, Canterbury Tales, The Great Ronald. Jason & the Argonauts. Sinbad the Sailor.

Myths. Ahhh.... my favourite. Stories of the Old Gods from many different lands with great lessons to be learnt. Apollo, Aphrodite, Proserpine, Echo, Narcissus.

Who were these people? Why are there stories about them? Are they true? Where did they come from? What was it like living back then?

This is where my interest in History started. Delving into History is, even at my age <70, is such fun. Going to the places on holidays & hearing the locals telling all the little nuances behind the history, their ancestors part in the big picture. Sometimes the history we learnt in School is found to be just plain wrong. The local stories around Carcassonne are fascinating.

No, History has never been boring to me

if you start trying to do your family tree, you'll find the history behind the names can be just as interesting.
History is only boring to those who have no interest in their past - or their country's.

Reposted.

G'day Val...I had in the past, an old Aunty. She was a headmistress at a suburban school. I remember one time, her relaying to me the story of psychological torture, a group of her students were subjected to during religious instruction at their local Sunday school.

The Sunday school teacher was using dolls too: paper ones; the type that are cut out of a single piece of paper in origami fashion, so when complete, make a lovely little line of human figures all joined at the fingertips, (until the paper runs out)!

I posted this on the wrong site. Hopefully this lands in the correct paddock !

Well...in the typical fervour of a religious instructor of the time, ( keeping on-theme with history), unsuspecting children were treated to the theatre of the burning of those innocent little figurines over a flame, representing the fires of hell! Kids talk!

But what I really wished to discuss with you, is the important subject of history. The reason history lessons a "bored"-down today, is not really a modern day phenomena at all. It is more a policy imposed by the elite of the left wing politic, (my supposition), that have infiltrated our once useful educational institutions, in order to impose a "view" of history suitable to a cause!

(Cont., below)...

Above:

For example, take the subject of the "white Australia" policy of old. A subject only ever raised in modern times with deprecation! But there once was a time, (what a sweet phrase), when history was actually some poor buggers life!

In the case in example here though, that was a time when "Chinaman" was a swear-word.
Are you familiar with the Darwin riots of the early eighteen hundred Val? Well that was a culmination of frustration and loss the local townsfolk felt at the time, sensing to be outnumbered by foreigners.

So "they took matters into their own hands", (from a phrase to a significant sentence now)! And rebelling against the often misplaced loyalty of our leaders, rose up against the Governor and corralled him in his quarters, where he stayed until rescued by a Navel flotilla sent from the south, to facilitate his rescue.

So the blossoming of this little historical uprising, was the instigation of the White Australia policy. A document designed to pacify the population, and aid it in the cure of its insecurities, by targeting a known cause of friction!

The Governor I might add, bade farewell to the naughty folk of Darwin forever, and the wise old men of power never trusted the welfare of such a dignitary of state-power to reside in Darwin until recently.

Well Val, trust that this boring little ramble of mine was within the editors guidelines, and look forward to talking again at your next article....keep up the good work!

Past local History can be very interesting too. I had a Great Grandmother & Aunts who told me stories of their & their parents past.

Her side of the family came to Australia after the Convict transportation was stopped. Never the less the Transport of people from Britain still carried on. He father was, "Caught poaching Raeberts on the Liads Lund" & were given the choice, prison or the Colonies'. So the whole family was shipped to Australia. It was at the time of the clearances.

They eventually settled in Ravenswood & had a Gold mine on the banks of Sandy Creek. The Stories I had told to me on my Grandmothers lap were better than anything I would ever read. What's more they were true. True Pioneers. Her & Grandad fought in Gaelic & spoke fluent Aboriginal from the Tribe around Ravenswood.

When I went to School we read "Booran" by M J Unwin. " Oh," she said, "that's James Morrel he was shipwrecked & lived with the Bindal People until he was rescued." She damm well knew him, & I got to hear some more of the stories associated with his 17 years with the Aboriginals that aren't in the Book.

History is essential; given if we know what happened before in very similar circumstances, it informs us what to expect when those things repeat themselves!

As important as it is, the problems with history seems to be; nobody learns the lessons of history? Otherwise, we'd not keep endlessly repeating them?

And so we keep mining our coal and burning it around the world, even as the permafrost starts to melt again; signaling a possible (10 minutes to midnight) extinction as before!

And don't get me confused with the ratbag green movement, who just want to impose their will, rather than persuade with irrefutable facts, like evidence based history!

Even so, we could burn all the coal we like if we just accompanied that burn with broad scale algae farming; as a means to sequester carbon; as well as provide endlessly sustainable fuel along with complete self sufficiency?

Algae absorb 2.5 times their bodyweight in atmospheric carbon and under optimised conditions, double that absorption capacity and oil production every 24 hours!

Those interested in earning mucho plenty carbon credits, N.B!

Sorry Val, I've heard of history, but not Mondo Dolls!

Would that you could have been my teacher, or someone who cares just like you!

That said, I have had teachers who made boring subjects (maths and science) interesting?

And those kids lucky enough to have a truly dedicated Teacher like you, would have been very lucky and granted a rare privilege!

Today, I believe, it's all about the paypacket; unionized dullards and just getting as much money as possible 9-5?

Or pulpit pounders only interested in indoctrinating gullible kids with their flights of fancy and fables; invariably presented as established fact, rather than the conventional wisdom it could have been for those interested in flat earth fairy tales?

Little wonder the brighter kids rejected it and even bailed out; missing half theirs and ours possible opportunities; as the next Einstein?

Why I've heard that the man who had the highest recorded IQ, was found on the back of a garbage truck! Such a waste of irreplaceable talent!
Rhrosty.

Hi Jayb,

Yes, weren't those Richards' Topical Encyclopedias fantastic ? Volume 15 was the Index and Atlas, and the Atlas separated 'North Australia' from 'Central Australia', so our set must have been a 1930s edition. Or at least the Atlas was. My mum 'bought' a set from a travelling salesman on time payment in Bass Hill in 1951, put nothing down, and never saw him again. So we got the whole set for free. Hours, days, weeks, months of complete enjoyment. They saved me from a life of gormlessness, to an extent.

And of all subjects, history may be the most fascinating, there is just so much of it, endless mysteries to uncover. Thanks, Jayb.

Joe

Hi Joe, yes that's the one. When my parents moved into their Retirement Village they threw out a lot of stuff. We were all invited to come & take our pick. I didn't want the full set I just wanted Vol 14. Well it was the raggeist book you ever saw. My mom said that I had read all the print off the pages. I still have it. Then one day I was at a bush 2nd hand place & there was another set although incomplete. I searched high & low & found Vol 14 in perfect condition. $2. When the Grandkids wanted a story on going to bed, what do you think they got.

I'm on Ancestry.com. Going back I'm related to Beowulf, Pepin the Great. (I guess we all are to him) I have at least a dozen Saints, Dozens of Kings,(Plantagenet's.) Judith, in the Bible & as far as I've got back so far to a 385BC Egyptian Pharaoh. A Chinese warlord who married a daughter of a Hungarian King. The Stuarts are most interesting. $ brothers married 4 women & each of them sired multiple children each of the wives. In a sort of Musical Chairs. I suppose when they started to nag too much it was time to rotate. :-) I'm related to all of them. Actually I think we all are. The sons & daughters of Kings spread eventually into a broad base down to pheasant stock then one of the GGGGrand kids get lucky, becomes rich & becomes another leader & it starts all over again. I find the number of brothers & sisters marrying is high, so is 1st & second 3rd cousins, even aunts & uncles. Baby betrothals are also high especially for Kings. That really stuffs up the timeline when the mother is 14 & the husband is 90 & the mother dies in childbirth. (X2)

Here's one for you.

The French beat the English at the Battle of Orleans under Command of St. Joan of Arc. Oh no they didn't.

They weren't French Troops. They were two Regiments of Donalds from Scotland. They were the Dofants private Bodyguard which the Doufant gave to Joan because he didn't trust his own soldiers. My Grandmother was a Donald.

Um Val

Looking at your menagerie of 30 dolls http://www.megacom.net/~arkones/mondo.html it is essential to include:

- Aboriginal and Torres Strait doll - top right corner? and

- obligatory LGBT doll - bottom right corner?

Of Bass and Flinders some rewriting or more accurate history is taking place, hence:

"...for two unmarried men isolated on vessels in far-flung locations.

“There was a time, when I was so completely wrapped up in you, that no conversation but yours could give me any degree of pleasure …” Flinders wrote to Bass towards the end of this period, “And yet it is not clear to me that I love you entirely …" *

* See more at: http://nofibs.com.au/2015/06/27/navigating-prejudice-burgewords-explores-matthewflinders/#sthash.WxEHlPnw.dpuf

Val

I hadn't heard of Mondo dolls either and did a search on Google images.

What I found from the images I looked at was that well over 2-thirds of the dolls were males with weapons. (So, history lesson no.1 - war is much more important than peace; aggro males have far more prestige than non-aggro males and males have much more prestige than females.)

Less than 1-third were women and of these, 2 out of 3 were obviously high born. (So, history lesson no.2 - men are much more important than women, regardless of whether they are high or low born, but if women are to have any recognition or importance, they must either be high born or achieve the equivalent of high-born status.)

Less than 1-sixth of the selection comprised people - either male or female - from the non-gentry, non-warrior classes. These are people who would have lived out their lives working in humble jobs and earning a humble wage. (So, lesson no.3 - the rich are sexy, glamorous winners and the poor are boring, frumpy losers.)

If history is boring to young people, then this is probably because: 1. most young people belong to the non-warrior, non-gentry classes, 2. most young people grow up in homes where the breadwinner(s) work in humble jobs for humble wages, and 3. half of all people are women.

Hi Killarney,

You suggest that "If history is boring to young people, then this is probably because: 1. most young people belong to the non-warrior, non-gentry classes, 2. most young people grow up in homes where the breadwinner(s) work in humble jobs for humble wages, and 3. half of all people are women."

That's precisely why people need to learn as much as they can from history, how did things get this way, why are they oppressed, or treated as 'out-groups', in order to understand better what to do about it.

From a conspiracy point of view, it's clear that the 'in-group' people want to keep the rest of us ignorant. Their most effective strategy for this is to ensure that 'out-groups' don't question their position, that they just put up with it.

Unwittingly, you have swallowed their line, with respect :)

Cheers,

Joe

Killarney: If history is boring to young people, then this is probably because: 1. most young people belong to the non-warrior, non-gentry classes, 2. most young people grow up in homes where the breadwinner(s) work in humble jobs for humble wages, and 3. half of all people are women.

Gawd, Killarney, you are such a Grumble Bum. You must have life intolerable for yourself to have such a bad attitude about life. None of us have ever had it easy but we have made good with what we have got & been thankful for it.

Remember, "Life wasn't meant to be easy, but with a little hard work & a positive attitude it can be tolerable." Above all, remember to smile & say "Hello" to everybody you meet even if you don't like them. Try to have a good day. ;-)

Giday Killarney

As a serious scholar of history I follow the non-humble with panache.

I find Angeline Jolie, Jesus Christ, Batman and Lara Bingle particularly illuminating.

Poyda

Hi Poyda,

You forgot the Kardashians. Why are they so important in historical terms ?

Joe

The KK bum has just gone parasailing. Sun eclipse to be reported.

http://tinyurl.com/o5jj5va

For the conspiracy aficionados, Batman and Batgirl both carked it:

http://tinyurl.com/batman-demise

http://tinyurl.com/batgirlfinallystuffed

Hi Joe and onthebeach

As a notable historian and sage I know not of Kardashians de la Bubblebutts ( http://tinyurl.com/o5jj5va ).

But as a serious student of the Madonna I appreciate she Was like a virgin ("Touched for the Very First Time") rather than suspiciously claiming miraculous Virgin Birth.

Poyda

Hi Poyd,

Interesting, your comment about the Madonna - I was just yarning to a friend about how easily complete inconsistencies in the Bible were tolerated back in the days when it was unthinkable to analyse or criticise anything in the Bible, hence every translation carried forward glaring contradictions, no trouble. And how these could give endless hours of fun.

For example, in Exodus, two origin stories are recounted in the same chapter, one in which the Earth was all water from which the land arose, the other the other way around. Obviously it's a composite construction, with bits from Egypt, from Mesopotamia, and perhaps even from India. Clearly, bits and pieces have been brought together by traders bringing stories back.

In relation to Mary: the ancestry of Jesus is usually traced back to David, to Noah, to Adam, etc., but through Joseph, who wasn't his father. So what was Mary's ancestry, if she existed ? Nobody seems to care. Was she the multi-breasted eastern Mediterranean sea-goddess, incorporated later into a Christian 'history', in order to make early Christianity more popular amongst people of the eastern Mediterranean, mainly Asia Minor ?

Frankly, I'm more interested in the economic and social history of the world, from the time of the agricultural revolution, 10-12,000 years ago - in particular, the role of Austronesian traders and seafarers from South-East Asia, through the Pacific Islands and west to Madagascar and the east 'Coromandel' coast of India.

Here's a puzzle: Rome used plenty of sandalwood, which can only be grown in parts of South-East Asia, Timor, etc., and - wait for it ! - Australia. Was Australian sandalwood traded two thousand years ago, by Austronesian ships, to eastern India, to be taken from there by Nabatean (e.g. Petra) traders around to the Red Sea and the Mediterranean, and on to Rome ? Gold was mined then in what is now Malaysia (they called it 'Chersonese'), and traded to Rome. So why not sandalwood ? And could some of it have come from Australia ? If only they could find a Roman figurine in Kakadu ......

Loudmouth

You claim that ingroups want to keep outgroups in ignorance by making sure the outgroups don't question the ingroup's position.

Then you make the bizarre claim that I've 'swallowed' their line. How??

I questioned the numerical makeup of the Mondo figures, to question the subliminal ways that history conditions us to value war over peace, royalty over common folk, warriors over workers, men over women - i.e. the ingroup's historical narrative.

By your own intimidatory response to me, one that is designed to mildly rebuke what you declare to be my perceived 'ignorance' and 'gullibility', YOU are the one who is not only swallowing the ingroup's line, but proactively practising it.

jayb

Judging by your earlier posts on this thread, you appear to have a sycophantic preoccupation with royalty, the military and the divine right of powerful men to procreate with as many wives and mistresses as time allows.

So, of course, you need to psychobabble me as some awfully unhappy person simply because I challenged the vicarious fantasies of your particular 'ingroup'.

Hi Killarney,

I know nothing about Mondo dolls, and care slightly less. As for your advocacy of 'no-nothing for the masses', you wrote:

"If history is boring to young people, then this is probably because: 1. most young people belong to the non-warrior, non-gentry classes, 2. most young people grow up in homes where the breadwinner(s) work in humble jobs for humble wages, and 3. half of all people are women."

i.e. giving 'reasons' why out-groups shouldn't bother themselves with history.

I rest my case.

I'm not suggesting that you are an agent for the upper classes, the in-groups, but to suggest that people should ignore the history of how society has developed is - unwittingly, as I pointed out - to effectively advocate that people stay ignorant. I suspect that the new upper-classes of the Goat Cheese Circle would support you in your disdain for the capacity of the lower orders to understand history.

Joe

"Goat Cheese Circle" of skim milk Latte sippers and solar cell Prius pluggers, that is :)

Poyda

Killarney: Judging by your earlier posts on this thread, you appear to have a sycophantic preoccupation with royalty, the military and the divine right of powerful men to procreate with as many wives and mistresses as time allows.

You assume to presume too much & got it wrong again. I simply did my Family Tree on Ancestry. Com. & this is what I have found.

Everybody is descendent from multiple lines of Royalty that's because once the children reach about 4 Generations past Royalty they are then peasants, going down the Social chain & end up as cannon fodder or if the first son or daughter marry back into Royalty & so continue the line. No sycophantic preoccupation at all. It's just research, nothing more, nothing less.

So, of course, you need to psychobabble me as some awfully unhappy person simply because I challenged the vicarious fantasies of your particular 'ingroup'.

That's how you come across in all your posts. As a person who has a big chip on their shoulder about everything. I guess I'm pretty much the opposite. Though I do like to give it to whingers just to amuse myself. I am not a belonger of any in-group or out-group. (belonger, I like that.) Is it that you feel that you are in an out-group that you feel the way you do? Why do you have to belong to a "group" at all? I don't & I'm happy.

Loudmouth

'... but to suggest that people should ignore the history of how society has developed is - unwittingly, as I pointed out - to effectively advocate that people stay ignorant'

No, that's not at all the point I was making. Much of the history we are taught and the sources it comes from are framed within certain narratives. For example, Australian schoolchildren are deluged with the Anzac history of WWI throughout their school years, but learn next to nothing about the WWI peace movement and opposition to the war.

While our Anzac history is steeped in the strict narrative framework that the Anzacs fought for our freedoms, school children get next to no opportunity to learn about our labour history and the many freedoms we enjoy today as a direct result of it.

History is both a tool for enlightenment and for ignorance. It all depends on who controls the narrative.

Jayb

If royalty and wars are two of the things that give your puny little life (and your family tree) some meaning, then go for it. However, don't try to kid me or yourself that you are the Happy Little Vegemite you pathetically claim to be.

People who are genuinely happy don't have to keep preaching about how happy they are. And they certainly don't need the psychological fix of browbeating others into believing they are deeply unhappy people for holding certain political views.

Playing the 'you're such an unhappy person' card is cheap, spiteful, lazy and childish. And people who act in cheap, spiteful, lazy and childish ways are seldom motivated by a happy disposition.

Killarney: don't try to kid me or yourself that you are the Happy Little Vegemite you pathetically claim to be.

"Et tu Brute"

Killarney: Playing the 'you're such an unhappy person' card is cheap, spiteful, lazy and childish. And people who act in cheap, spiteful, lazy and childish ways are seldom motivated by a happy disposition.

I tried to be grumpy once & people laughed at me. No. I'm a happy, very relaxed person, always have been. It's just my nature. As I said, one of my greatest joys in life is taking the pi$$ out of Grumpy Bums. I makes me happy.

You are right on one point. History is written by the Victor. A point I made previously, about going to places & hearing about the real story about what happened there. &, What we learnt in school was all wrong.

Killarney: but learn next to nothing about the WWI peace movement and opposition to the war.

Children are given role models to aspire to, not learn about cowards.

Killarney: History is both a tool for enlightenment and for ignorance. It all depends on who controls the narrative.

In the 70/80's the school curriculum was all about the Left & Peace Movement. (Hippies) If you went to Uni during those times & you weren't firmly in the Left Camp you failed you Courses. That's all History.

Killarney: deeply unhappy people for holding certain political views.

I really don't care what you Political views are, although they are obvious. You keep making Political points & turning the conversation into a political slanging match.

Now back to the Mondo Dolls. It took me a couple of days, then I realized where I'd seen those dolls before. Does anyone remember the "Coles Funny Picture Book" series of Books by E. W. Cole. Killarney you would love them, they're all about the Working Class.

Hi Killarney,

But schooling is not the only way we learn. I take it for granted that people can read outside of school, and can do so for life. No, we may not learn much history at school - it's not even intended that we should, there's so much history after all - but in a person's lifetime, it's not very significant, except that, with a decent teacher, we may be pointed in useful directions, the rest is up to us. In short, schooling is not our only education, or at least it shouldn't be.

Schooling is not only, or even primarily, concerned with information, it is a sifting mechanism, more closed in earlier days than now, and more so in Britain than in, say, here or in the USA. Of course, elites try to limit mass social mobility, who gets through to join them, and succeed them in their control of society. The late Ralph Turner wrote a brilliant, and neglected, article in 1960 about what he called 'Sponsored and Contest Mobility':

http://www.professorreed.com/Turner_-_Sponsored_vs_Contest_Mobility.pdf

He compared ideal British and American modes of educational mobility:

* sponsored systems: in Britain, selection is (was) made very early, at the 11+ exams, about who was to be pushed forward and who was to be left behind; those lucky few would be mentored and monitored and coached, sent to 'better' secondary schools, guided into the right university course and on to the right sort of employment.

So, in Britain, there was a three-tiered secondary system - secondary moderns (like out old technical schools, for the working class kids), comprehensives (for upper working- and middle-class kids) and 'public'/private/grammar schools for the elite kids. That model has been weakened, of course, in the last fifty years; and

* contest systems

[continued]

* contest systems, (again just an ideal model): each year of schooling was a 'contest', with annual exams; success meant you went into the next year; nobody particularly 'coached' you, you were more or less on your own, the contest was open and success was still possible, right through to university and/or employment.

So, in one system, the elite carefully selected early on, and made sure that educational advancement was a closed system, at the end of which they were confident that they had groomed the next generation to carry on their elitist principles in controlling society.

In the contest model, more dog-eat-dog certainly but more 'equal', success was more open to anyone who put the effort in, and how well you did eventually determined your place in the elite.

Of course, in the meantime, in both ideal types of schooling, you learnt the basics, including (in the history syllabus) all that stuff about kings and dates and explorers and spearings, etc. But it was hardly put across as the be-all and end-all.

In Australia, back in the fifties, we seemed to have a mixture of 'sponsored' and 'contest' mobility systems: As a feral Bankstown kid, I started off in 3B, barely able to speak (seriously), but along came that Encyclopedia salesman (see above), and I was able to get into 4A, 5A and 6A, then into 1A in high school, and so on. In first year, at my high school, I think it went down to 1R; in second year, down to 2G; in 3rd year, only down to 3E, and in 4th and 5th years, 4B and 5B. Presumably, all those kids from 1H down to 1R left at the end of first year, all the kids from 2F and 2G, likewise in second year.

[TBC]

[continued]

So there was sifting going on, but not as blatantly as in Britain. Getting through was a contest, and it was up to each of us to strive, nobody holding our hands. Of course, there was probably much more pressure on teachers to teach well. I remember some wonderful teachers, but none of them acted as 'sponsors' or 'coaches' as in a sponsored system. They simply taught swell, and it was up to us to learn or bugger off. And the best lesson they all taught was to keep learning.

What is striking about these sponsored-contest models (and they are MODELs, Killarney, not exact reality), is how applicable the sponsored form has been in relation to a carefully-selected few Aboriginal students and academics: some seem to have been coached from secondary school, right through their university days, onto post-graduate study, back into academe and quickly into high positions. Many notoriously have senior white academics at their elbows, who are suspected of writing their papers, theses etc. It is notable that, if or when they fall out (or if the white academic retires), the output of that Indigenous academic seems to completely dry up. But it's not all puppet and puppet-master:

Lesson 1: never fall out with your patron, your minder, unless you can find a better one.

Lesson 2: if your patron looks like he or she is past it, get another one.

[TBC]

[continued]

Sorry, Killarney, this has been a mixed bag: yes, schooling can - for indifferent students - indoctrinate, if it does anything at all, but the bottom line is that we each of us have to strive on our own, to develop our own individual educational base, if possible to maintain some sort of personal integrity, and to learn constantly throughout our lives.

And it's strange how trying to understand history becomes more important as one gets older. If I had more time, I would love to immerse myself in the economic and social history of that period from the Roman Empire through to the late Middle Ages, 300-1500; and especially the history of trade between South-East Asia, the Mediterranean and China in those years. I want to KNOW how the world got this way :)

Cheers,

Joe

jayb

In response to my comment about Australian schoolchildren learning next to nothing about the WWI peace movement, you write:

‘Children are given role models to aspire to, not learn about cowards.’

My point exactly – only in reverse. How many Australians know about the War Precautions Act of 1915? Under this act, all anti-war literature (including songs like ‘I didn’t raise my son to be a soldier’), meetings and rallies were criminalised, and hundreds of anti-war/anti-conscription activists were imprisoned, tortured, black-listed from employment and (if born overseas) deported. Yet, they fought on and succeeded in defeating two conscription referendums, an almost forgotten moral victory that saved tens of thousands of young Australian men from being forcibly sent to the killing fields of Europe.

You call these people cowards. I call them heroes.

Because I’ve made a point of learning about the history of anti-war activism, I have no illusions about the glorious warrior. Because I’ve also made a point of learning about the history of gender politics, I feel very sorry for men who have been brutally brainwashed over the centuries to equate violence and war with masculine pride.

‘You keep making Political points & turning the conversation into a political slanging match.’

Well …seeing this is a history thread, please check back over the history of this exchange. The slanging match – i.e. when things got nasty and personal – was started by you. In other words … it’s all YOUR fault, Mr Happy.

So excuse me … I’m off to spend the day doing happy things and thinking happy thoughts.

Loudmouth

You've written quite a lot to respond to and quite I'm pushed for time today. I'll respond in a day or so.

Killaney: The slanging match – i.e. when things got nasty and personal – was started by you. In other words … it’s all YOUR fault, Mr Happy.

Killarney: 2nd Page 5th post. Class Wars, Political.
Killarney: 4th Page, 1st post. Gender Wars, Political.
Killarney: 4th Page, 5th post. Information Wars, Political.
Killarney: 4th Page 6th post. Personal attack on my supposed political leanings. Political.

I guess if it was up to people in the Peace Movement we would all be speaking German or Japanese now.

I can see you are in favour of giving into the latest lot of "peaceful people." Have you brought your head bag yet? Better get in early.

Left up to your kind we'll be all speaking Arabic soon. Won't that be great for the Feminist Movement.

Now back to the Mondo Dolls. I have the four "Coles, Funny Picture Books" & the four Supplementary books. They are a great read, especially for history buffs, somewhat scary by to days standards. Showing exactly what people thought, behaved & believed in the 19th Century.

They would be a good read those psychologists & Philosophers amongst us. Historically comparing todays thinking with what they thought was good & correct back then.

Loudmouth

‘But schooling is not the only way we learn. ‘

No, it’s not. We are equally educated by the main cultural narratives created and maintained by the media, film/TV, literature, art, music, folklore and legend, prevailing political and economic policies and many other influences. Our own individual temperaments, personalities, family backgrounds and social circles tend to influence what narratives we are mostly drawn to.

I totally agree that schooling is a ‘sifting mechanism’ – designed more to mould than to enlighten. Schools mostly practise quite blatant elitism, praising and encouraging those who have the necessary talents and mental attitudes to enforce and maintain the prevailing system, and ignoring, discouraging and often punishing those who don’t.

As far as history is concerned, I’ve learned a thousand times more about our past than I ever learned at school. But before I could successfully do that, I had to unlearn most of my school history lessons.

‘And it's strange how trying to understand history becomes more important as one gets older.’

Yes, that happens to many people. Family history becomes particularly interesting to people as they get older. There is also a proliferation of local history publishing from older, retired people.

‘If I had more time, I would love to immerse myself in the economic and social history of that period from the Roman Empire through to the late Middle Ages, 300-1500; and especially the history of trade between South-East Asia, the Mediterranean and China in those years. I want to KNOW how the world got this way :)’

Oh, yes … indeed. These are two areas that are very much neglected by mainstream history curriculums. The period often belittled as the ‘Dark Ages’ was actually a golden age for several Old European countries, especially Ireland. And the whole history of what was a flourishing system of trade between Europe, the Middle East and Asia for many centuries is equally neglected. (And don’t forget Africa, which was a thriving continent of quite advanced civilisations in those days before the slave trade decimated it.)

jayb

In answer to my accusation that you started the slanging match, you responded with a list of my post contents, starting with this:

'Killarney: 2nd Page 5th post. Class Wars, Political.'

To review that particular post, I made an values assessment of the Mondo figures I had Googled - based on how often certain types of figures appeared. There was nothing at all personal or 'slanging' in that post. It was entirely an expression of my own observations and opinion.

However, it's very revealing that you equate a post about class wars with 'a slanging match'. It speaks volumes about how you view and respond to the behaviour of people whose opinions you don't agree with. It seems that you deliberately take personal offence in order to give yourself justification to attack them personally.

I've been on forums like this for many years - long enough to know that the goal of this kind of tactic is to intimidate and humiliate people into silence, in the hope of discrediting their views. These tactics are as pervasive as they are tedious.

As for your dystopian scenario of a world in which we would be speaking German, Japanese or Arabic, I could think of worse fates - like living in a world controlled entirely by banksters and corporate monopolies (ugh ....!).

If Germany had won WWI and WWII, nothing much would be different, except that we'd have a different set of countries telling us that they are the good guys - and saying it in German, instead of Transatlantic-accented English.

Hi Killarney,

In your crack at Jayb, you assert that:

"As for your dystopian scenario of a world in which we would be speaking German, Japanese or Arabic, I could think of worse fates - like living in a world controlled entirely by banksters and corporate monopolies (ugh ....!).

"If Germany had won WWI and WWII, nothing much would be different, except that we'd have a different set of countries telling us that they are the good guys - and saying it in German, instead of Transatlantic-accented English."

WWII: I vaguely remember English-language Japanese money which was to be used in Australia: my dad kept some in a little tin. So, perhaps, for a short time, yes, we might have been forced to speak Japanese. But given the treatment of prisoners-of-war by the Japs, I suspect that that would not have lasted long: certainly, Aboriginal people would have been exterminated quickly, but Anglo-Australians would have met the same fate soon afterwards. Yes, I'm accusing the Japs of planning genocide.

As for the Germans and WWII: If the battles at Kokoda, Tobruk and Stalingrad in 1942 had failed, and the fascists had won those, they had already declared that they would divide up the world between them.

For your information, since you appear to be unaware of it, the Germans were already exterminating Jews by the millions, Roma, Russians, leftists, homosexuals, mental defectives, cripples - and it seemed likely that, once these non-Aryans etc. had been wiped off the face of the earth, in the tens of millions, the Nazis would start on the other non-Aryans, in the hundreds of millions, in order to impose their perverted notion of an Aryan Utopia on half the world.

Now THAT's dystopia.

You're an idiot, Killarney.

Thanks Joe, I, was biting my tongue for fear of being banned for at least a month.

Thanks Jayb,

Killarney's assertion that:

"As for your dystopian scenario of a world in which we would be speaking German, Japanese or Arabic, I could think of worse fates - like living in a world controlled entirely by banksters and corporate monopolies (ugh ....!)."

needs some clarification: I thought that, in the eyes of some of the pseudo-Left, (and extreme Right like Arjay) that banksters (especially Jews like Rockefeller) already ruled the world, and that, ever since Lenin's "Imperialism: the Highest Stage of Capitalism" came out in 1916, so did monopoly/corporate capitalism.

So, Killarney, we are already living in a world controlled entirely by etc. etc. ? The entire world ? China ? Russia ? Check your instructions, comrade :)

So, today, we, all of us here in Australia, are living in the worst dystopia possible ? Luckily, I'm not at my favourite restaurant, otherwise I would have choked on my kale. I would have had to get in my BMW and go home for a good lie-down, perhaps after a couple of glasses of a nice chardonnay, maybe a Middleton 1994.

Hyperbole is one thing, idiotic statements are another. Leave the 'hyperbowl' to the kids chucking a tanty over a new I-Pod, Killarney :)

Joe

Jayb and Loudmouth

Thank you for spectacularly and ever so sanctimoniously failing to get my point. My posts on this thread have been about historical NARRATIVES, not facts and certainly not our own victorious horrors that-might-have-been judgements.

The point I was making is that, had the other side won WWII, we would be subject to the same kind of victors' propaganda that whitewashes their genocides, massacres, bombings, concentration camps, war rapes, occupations etc. And quite possibly, we might even be speaking their language.

Having known nothing else, those who grow up with such victors propaganda will just believe it. Those who don't will be isolated and persecuted as dissidents and terrorists. (As the West are the current post-WWII victors, how much of what we are told about our actions during and since that war are simply victors' propaganda and how much of it is truth? How many of the West's genocides, massacres etc have been covered up or reduced to footnotes in our history books?)

Your combined pavlovian outrage simply proves my point. Our brainwashing regarding the sanctity of 'our' wars - and the rightness/wrongness of the victors/vanquished - digs far too deeply to challenge it with mere reason or, gasp!, humour.

And, Loudmouth. No matter how morally outraged you feel, NOTHING justifies spewing out crap like 'You're an idiot, Killarney' in two successive postings. Try shutting your mouth and opening your mind for once. You might actually learn something.

Unless the two of you can come up with some halfway respectful rhetoric, that does not spew hatred, ridicule and humiliation, then this exchange is over.

No, Killarney, we got your point before you finished your first sentence: the world is full of mugs, who so easily swallow whatever is dished out.

No, I don't believe so. People are not such puppets, and - I hate to break the news to you and your Utopia - never will be.

I might have believed that sort of rhetoric when I was young and foolish, but, through all the twists and turns of life, I hope those days are long gone.

You really are an idiot, Killarney. Keep learning, that's your only hope.

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth

'No, Killarney, we got your point before you finished your first sentence: the world is full of mugs, who so easily swallow whatever is dished out.'

Oh ... really? Well good for you and jayb. What a pity that this was NOT my point AT ALL. In fact, it doesn't even REMOTELY resemble anything I either said or was even trying to say.

But that's OK. You can always cover up your own bigoted ignorance by calling others 'idiots'. Works every time. I'm done with this thread.

Hi Killarney,

Sorry, can you please explain in little words what you were trying to say ? In my bigoted ignorance, you might have lost me :)

Fifty-odd years ago, in my Maoist days, I had some notion of the all-powerful, monolithic effects of monopoly capitalism (I'd just got onto Lenin's article, mentioned above) and similar articles by Mao himself. Later, in the seventies and eighties, I tried to plough through some of the Structural Marxist stuff, Althusser, Poulantzas, Apple, Giroux, etc., but, being not all that bright, it took me some time to get beyond their interpretation of the real world and its possibilities.

Forgive me for misunderstanding your suggestion that we are all, now, living under the most appalling restrictions, more brutal than anything the Nazis could have dreamt of, that life for every ordinary Australian (not the 1 % of course) is not only horrific but that oppression so cleverly tarted up that nobody but yourself can see it. Have I still misunderstood it ?

If you have found the 'truth', please share it: surely it can't do any harm to the rest of us to know the 'truth' ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe , do you find it strange that all these peacenix seem to gravitate towards appeasing Tyrants. I wonder why that is?

Hi Jayb,

Perhaps because, when you crave 'The Good Society', and you think you have a blueprint for a better world, it's tempting to want it ASAP, and dictatorship seems to be the quick way to get that. No mucking about with all this bourgeois democracy stuff.

But first you have to get rid of all that democracy stuff, so any dictator will do, because then the 'people' will overthrow him and prepare the way for Utopia, and the blueprint can be put into practice. (At least for a few weeks, before reality sets in).

Karl Popper wrote some brilliant articles (and of course, his 'Open Society and its Enemies') precisely on this subject. Check out the volume of his works called 'After the Open Society'.

Cheers,

Joe

Jayb,

By the way, why are bees painted blue ?

why are bees painted blue ?

Cause they're blue collar workers?

Why, Jayb, because the higher they go, the fewer. So one of the Coles Books maintained.

No, I've never understood it either.

BTT:

Killarney,

In the never-ending search for the truth in history, Popper suggests that:

the " .... spirit of co-operation, this attitude: 'I may be wrong and you may be right, and by a common effort we may get nearer to the truth', is what I call the spirit of rationalism. It is an attitude which looks out for the good in any human individual, and which is ready to accept good suggestions as well as criticism from anybody.

"It is the exact opposite of the attitude 'I know, and nobody can tell me anything', that is to say, the attitude of the pig-headed dogmatic, the attitude of contempt of human reason (except, perhaps, of one's own human reason); an attitude which does not feel in need of justifying itself in the face of others, and which neglects criticism; in brief, the attitude of irrationalism."
[Moral Man and Immoral Society, 1940].

We learn (hopefully) from our mistakes; we learn by trial and error. So, there can never be some once-and-for-all blueprint to which everybody must adhere; no State can be allowed to ever claim that sort of power over people. So far, no revolution has stuck to its 'once-and-for-all' principles for more than the first few weeks or months, simply because reality has been constantly changing and throwing up unpredicted problems.

Just some thoughts :)

Joe

I found & brought the full collection of the Coles Books. They are full of 19th Century Moral Lessons. A wonderful read to gain an insight to 19th Century thinking.

My favourite was the Caning Machine with the bad boy hanging over a rail while the Master turned a handle of a wheel with hundreds of canes on it & all the students laughing in the background. I sure that's where they got the models for the Mondo Dolls.