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The Forum > Article Comments > Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation > Comments

Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation : Comments

By Gary Johns, published 29/7/2015

James Hansen, the former NASA climate scientist, wrote in 2011: 'Suggesting that renewables will let us phase out rapidly fossil fuels is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter bunny.'

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Max, you introduced the word "Fukushima" into the discussion. Unlike the technology of the 'Hindenberg' and 'Titanic', water reactors like Fukushima are still in operation and being built. There are much safer reactor designs which do not use water, but as far as I know these are not out of the pilot stage.

As you say PV does have "moods", in that it does not work as well on cloudy days, or at all at night. However, this suits some applications, such as air conditioning, which is needed most when PV works best: on sunny days. Coal fired power stations also have characteristics which make them less than perfect, in particular they can't be quickly turned on or off. Also you can't build a small efficient coal plant, nor it it likely to be near where the customer is. We need to combine the strengths of different technologies. I expect that coal will remain for the foreseeable future for base load, with gas turbines for peak loads, along with solar and wind power.

In addition, I expect we will see increased use of demand management. The power generating system and the grid has to be sized to cope with a brief peak load. We have made the mistake of trying to hide this fact from the consumer and given them the illusion they can have as much power as they want, whenever they want it. The result is a much more expensive system.

If the peak can be reduced, the system can be smaller and cheaper. Household appliances such as air conditioners, refrigerators and air conditioners can be switched and and off remotely as required, with minimal inconvenience to the consumer. One example is "PeakSmart" air-conditioning: https://www.energex.com.au/residential-and-business/positive-payback/positive-payback-for-households/households
Posted by tomw, Monday, 10 August 2015 11:36:50 AM
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///However, this suits some applications, such as air conditioning, which is needed most when PV works best: on sunny days.///
Unless of course those PV cells are relied upon when people use reverse-cycle airconditioning for heating on a cold, dark winter's night. PV just doesn't do winter.

There are nukes that are despatchable.

///demand management///
Is just code for "make the problem with intermittent, unreliable renewables someone else's problem". No thanks. The climate is changing while we debate this, and the only nation in the world (with relatively modest levels of hydro, just like the rest of us) that has a clean grid is France.

Why are you anti-nuclear? Why? Seriously? It's *thousands* of times safer than coal.

///The power generating system and the grid has to be sized to cope with a brief peak load. We have made the mistake of trying to hide this fact from the consumer and given them the illusion they can have as much power as they want, whenever they want it. The result is a much more expensive system.///
Typical! Just typical! This is exactly the sort of customer-spanking that Tony Abbott and his ilk play up to. We can avoid this if we just go nuclear.

///If the peak can be reduced, the system can be smaller and cheaper.//
Yes, but how much? No wonder every renewable report I read says ridiculous things like we'll cut our energy use in half! It's romantic nonsense! We've got 200 years of energy efficiency improvements since the Industrial Revolution, and less energy is doing far more per unit of GDP than ever before. Yet we STILL find more and more uses for electricity. It's useful stuff! I say clean it up without spanking people for wanting to use it, and you might find a more willing electorate.
Posted by Max Green, Monday, 10 August 2015 12:07:34 PM
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The economics behind the high renewables contribution in Europe do not stack up.

Based on the 2013 European power generation GWh total figures kindly provided by Warmair:
Total renewables 0.7933 million
Total all sources 3.1 million
This means renewables contributed 25.6%.

One certain consequence of this large contribution from renewables is that electricity prices have been pushed up substantially in Europe. So much so, that Germany et al are discouraged from further investment in, or rather subsidisation of, renewables.

The key outcome that gets ignored is that, despite the billions and billions of euros that have been invested in installing those renewables, there is no measurable impact on global warming. This is capital misallocation at its worst.
Posted by Raycom, Monday, 10 August 2015 3:33:16 PM
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