Justin,
I agree with you--we are better off not being cynical about such matters. It is important to discuss but I doubt we'll find clear answers acceptable to most. And while clear ethical guidelines are undeniably desirable, they are surely just as elusive. The problem, as I see it, is that ethics, and the concept of 'person', is an entirely human construct. Take the case of when life begins. While no-one seriously questions that a sperm or viable egg aren't alive, there is much controversy about when a person (very problematic I believe) or even new life begins. Is it when a sperm first begins to enter an egg (and cell fusion hasn't been completed?). Is it when their plasma membranes fuse, or perhaps when the nuclei become one? Even Catholic doctrine states that a person begins at the COMPLETION of fertilisation, so the product of fertilisation (now recognised as foreign by the mother)has no moral status until this time. And simply through this one event it automatically attains special ethical status? Why? Does any embryo, or fetus? Singer argues even new born babies have not gained personhood. The problem is that WE give something special status because we value ourselves and hopefully other persons, except perhaps for Redneck and his ilk. (cont'd)

Even so, this is an arbitrary value, not something empirically verified or inherent to the embryo. The embryo is a ball of cells but it can also be much more. Once we have laws stipulating the destruction of IVF embryos (after some years...and varies from state to state), then the argument against ES cell research ONLY using these embryos becomes thin. How can we be bound by legislation to ethically destroy these embryos because they are not required for one purpose (reproduction) and yet not be able to use them for another? If people are against the destruction of embryos then they must, if consistent, also be against IVF and the industry. Personally I like what I've seen of the Jewish faith in this matter; they believe personhood develops throughout gestation in a gradual process. While the conceptus is biologically reliant on the mother (umbilicus etc) it does not have full ethical status. Old, simple, but clear and in some ways intuitive. And finally, we have a preponderance to think linearly which might be why we struggle with these issues; think Buddhist with a twist:) But now I'm rambling so I'll leave with it.

It is not unethical for stem cell research, considering the benifits to humanity as a whole. What is overlooked is the fact that science fails to try and bridge the gap between church and themselves. This results in the church taking an opposing stance because science fails to recognize the implications to the very fabric of what we are as a culture. Unfortunately this results in opposition to a benifit to humanity.

nubee ".... a mother of a child with a disablity, it's terrible trying to raise a child to adulthood when that child is never normal.. I believe these people are better off not living...." ( Is it really 'these people' or people with nubee's attitude towards disability?)

This reminds me of a story about a rich man free and happy in every way except for an illness. while dying from his illness he prayed, if I'm born again I want to be happy strong, and have a healthy body free from illness and that he'll not care whether he is rich or not.

This wish was granted, but he was born into a poor family, his parents died early, he became poverty stricken and did not have money to satisfy his body...prayed again

In this next life he was born wealthy, strong and with everything to be happy but he did not have anyone to share ...so you guessed it..

This time he had wife, but she was jealous and nagging; this drove him to his death...so once again at time of death he prayed.

Next he was healthy, rich and had a good wife but she died young and he eventually died of a broken heart..so again

This time he was rich, healthy and had a long lived wife but he became unfaithful, divorced and married a younger wife who in turn amassed all his fortune and left him for younger man...

Should I go on?

Disability is a part of the human condition. nubee will be contended in having a normal child through genetic screening, but this child could be involved in a car accident and become a quadriplegic. Is nubee prepared to trade one human conditions to a another, I'd prefer the devil I know or the cards fate has dealt me..