The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > STEM: part culture war, part cargo cult > Comments

STEM: part culture war, part cargo cult : Comments

By Nicholas Gruen, published 17/2/2015

We've nearly doubled educational spending per student in the last few decades. That's funded popular measures with little impact.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. Page 2
  4. 3
  5. All
Chris, thanks for taking the trouble to respond with some thoughtful comments.

I do think you're approaching this, perhaps understandably given your background, from the wrong directions though. We have been selecting the least able cohort of students to be trained as teachers for at least 3 decades, perhaps longer. The consequence is that poor teachers have turned out a generation of poorly trained kids and then we select from the most minimally competent to train the next generation of teachers. It's a race to the bottom and it has to stop.

Another huge problem is the very large number of part-time teachers and supply teachers who are dropped in on classes with no real role other than supervision. My year 12 son was looking for help a few days ago with a math problem (he didn't understand my explanation) and had to hold off for some days because his teacher was away (yes, everyone gets sick occasionally) and the replacement couldn't answer the question. The problem is much greater in some schools than others. His previous school, which was a complete disaster academically and administratively was overrun with part-timers. The high performing students still do okay in that sort of environment, but the strugglers simply give up and that is borne out by that particular school's record.

It starts at Primary school, of course, where the quality of teaching is the paramount determinant of outcomes in later schooling. Poor administration (often lousy principals promoted to their level of incompetence) leads to poor teacher morale, leads to poorly trained and motivated students. Add in the often chaotic homelife some of these kids have, including sadly my own when they were young; their parents recently divorced and being driven hither and thither by lawyers and courts, and the outcomes are predictable.

I have met some wonderful students of education during my most recent period at uni, but they are a minority. Teaching has to be seen as a vocation, not something you do because it pays ok and has good hours for when your kids are young.
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 17 February 2015 1:02:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks all for your comments. It's great to see thoughtful debate rather than linkbait and trolling in comments.
Posted by Nicholas Gruen, Wednesday, 18 February 2015 3:05:50 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Craig,

I accept that the cut-off for teacher training, but a cut-off is a cut-off, not an average. There are still able people going into teaching, just not as many as in the past. I think we have reached the point of actually dong something about it. The NSW Coalition government has taken steps already. I expect the Victorian Labor government to do the same.

There is a difference between part-time teachers and supply teachers (a British term for what we in Victoria call casual relief teachers, CRTs). The CRT fills in because the class teacher is absent. The part-time teacher has a teaching load and is expected to run the class like a full-time teacher. Schools should hot have a problem with part-time teachers provided there is a sensible structure in place in the school.

You mention principals. One of the funny aspects of educational discussion is the belief that teachers would be better if principals had more power when principals themselves are just teachers which have risen a little higher.

Teaching is a vocation, but even highly motivated people need material recognition. If we want our students to perform at their best, we need to pay our teachers well, give them decent working conditions and support them in the job they do. Most of the “reforms” imposed in the last 30 years have been of no value at all.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 19 February 2015 8:01:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Chris,
A cut-off is not an average, but if the cut-off is moving down then even if all other things are held equal, so is the average, while the standard deviation is getting broader and the distribution is getting more skewed to the low end. It means that there are more kids likely to be taught by a substandard teacher and therefore, more substandard teachers in the next generation. I do hope that something is being done, because it's a genuinely bad situation that needs to be fixed properly and quickly. Every year that it continues makes it much worse, since older teachers who may on average be more capable yield the field to members of a cohort that is on average less capable.

It's not just the teachers, of course, but the rigidly processive model of management that has become entrenched within bureaucracies, especially Government ones.

I couldn't agree more on the subject of principals. In my own children's educational careers they've had 5 different principals. One who has recently moved on from their current school was really excellent - a standout performer in every way. I haven't had time to evaluate his successor yet. However, the one at their previous school was/is appallingly, tragically incompetent and to my mind has risen far beyond her ability. The primary school experience was also mixed, with a long-term, well-respected highly competent leader retiring to be succeeded by a person without leadership skills and a reliance on rules.

The problem with part-timers is that they are less committed to the job in many cases. As well, in some cases there are two or more part-timers serving a single class, so consistency goes out the window. The good performers get the attention and the kids who really need it sit looking out the window or on facebook disengaged from the whole exercise.

Yes, good teachers deserve to be paid properly, but the poor ones don't deserve to be paid the same unless they take the trouble and have the capacity to become good.

Thanks again for a good discussion.
Posted by Craig Minns, Thursday, 19 February 2015 9:22:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Nicholas Gruen,

Thank you for responding as author to the comments. I realise that your article was really about STEM, but if you wish to find out more on what I was saying you can find details in my submission to the Senate inquiry into school funding (no 42 at http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/School_Funding/School_Funding/Submissions and a thread I created on the Gonski review at
http://community.tes.co.uk/tes_opinion/f/31/t/576719.aspx?PageIndex=1.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 19 February 2015 12:52:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Craig,

You are right about cut-offs and averages. I am just trying to show the picture is not as bleak as is often made out.

I was a school timetabler in three secondary schools. It was not necessary for part-timers to share classes in any of them, though there was one year in which an acting principal put up a curriculum structure which could not work and which required to have lots of shared classes, not because we had part-timers but because the structure was just silly. In primary schools it would be different because normally the one teacher takes the one class for almost the whole week.

I can assure you that there are many teachers who want to see improvement in their profession, in both classroom teachers and principals.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 19 February 2015 1:01:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. Page 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy