FATIMA APPARITIONS

Miracle of Fatima
https://www.ewtn.com/fatima/apparitions/October.htm

This is how thousands of indigenous Mexicans were converted to Catholicism
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/science-sees-what-mary-saw-from-juan-diegos-tilma.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Guadalupe

Breaking News: The Virgin Mary Apparition in Vietnam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UYe4v0-po

(from 7:42 on pseudo science against clear evidence of apparitions incl Fatima)
Jewish Harvard Professor Roy Schoeman Becomes Convinced Catholic (Talk 1 Prescott Mission))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeDzSfquYcs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachi_Martin
He spoke and wrote often about the Three Secrets of Fátima and was an ardent supporter of Fr. Nicholas Gruner: "Father Gruner is fulfilling a desperately needed function in the ongoing perception of Mary's role in the salvation of our imperilled world. Father Gruner is absolutely correct that the consecration of Russia as—Our Lady desired, has not been executed".

Martin said concerning the three secrets of the Virgin Mary as Queen of Heaven in Fátima in 1917, she mandated the Pope of 1960 to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. The Russian Orthodox Church would then convert to Roman Catholicism. If the mandate were not followed, devastating war in the world and destruction inside the church (The Great Apostasy) would follow. He said that he stood outside the papal living quarters in 1960 whilst Pope John XXIII and Cardinal Bea and others were reading the document containing the third secret, and that, in order to assure Russian cooperation at the approaching Second Vatican Council, the Pope decided against the mandate. Later Paul VI and John Paul II decided against it for various reasons.”

LOOK WHAT HAPPENED TO RUSSIA IN 1917! Up to 60 million people murdered by Stalin.

Cont.....

Dear George,

Mea culpa. I was implicitly defining faith as credulous belief. Some believers have that sort of faith. Others have the faith of Anselm.

Of course Dawkins’ arguments against religious faith are nothing new. However, I think his motivation is quite new. From my reading of him he is most concerned with the fundamentalist’s reading of the Bible and the Koran as scientific texts whose literal interpretation conflicts with scientific findings. That is not your religion nor the religion of most educated Christians. However, there is a similarity between that type of religion, and the Marxist ideology of Stalin resulting in Lysenkoism which rejected genetic science as incompatible with the Stalinist ideology.

To Dawkins nothing can trump scientific findings except their falsification by other scientific findings which contradict the former. Where Dawkins goes wrong in my opinion is to condemn all believers, even those who do not support biblical literalism, because they are part of a religion which contains those who support biblical literalism.

I am of the impression (you will correct me if I am wrong) that the main Marxist critique of religion is that it is a tool of unenlightened bourgeois society to control the masses.

I object to faith (defined as credulous belief) whether in religion, ideology, new age or science. Those ignorant of science may either have inordinate faith in it, fear of it or rejection of its findings.

I do wonder at the dynamics of internet discussions. It is quite different to talking about edgy subjects face to face or even on the telephone. Internet conversations lack the feedback that facial expressions and voice intonation that modify what we say to each other. Hence we get this awfully fraught conversation in which name calling is the game, misunderstandings are rife and little real conversation occurs. Without affective feedback we feel free to endlessly regurgitate our prejudices. I think Craig Minns and George have been very patient and have given their best shot only to be rewarded by the usually trolling. I have read threads from other religious blogs that do not have the same fraught quality as this one has. It would be great to have a real discussion in which the contributors have actually read the article. I am sure that trolling has prevented many interesting contributions.

....Cont

Many Non Catholics wouldn't be aware of the apparitions of Mother Mary. They have never been disproven. And the evidence is there. But never newsworthy, hey? As the insults to Christianity persist.

“The believers in miracles accept them (rightly or wrongly) because they have evidence for them. The disbelievers in miracles deny them (rightly or wrongly) because they have a doctrine against them.”
-G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/profecias/esp_profecia01d2.htm
"Pope John Paul II was nearly assassinated on May 13, 1981 (the anniversary of Mary’s first apparitional appearance at Fatima). The gun was aimed at the Pope’s head, but Agca had to aim for his abdomen instead when the pontiff turned to a young girl who was wearing a picture of Our Lady of Fatima. While he was in the hospital, Pope John Paul reviewed the Church’s documentation of Fatima, and he read the secret Third Secret of Fatima. In 1984 the Pope consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Communism collapsed soon afterward."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_F%C3%A1tima

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I_conspiracy_theories

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecration_of_Russia

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/free/2013/3/article/why-did-the-virgin-mary-choose-russia-earth-shaking-promises-from-heaven-about-

“In addition, Russians still believe in objective truth, unlike the intellectual elites of the West, who have "deconstructed" reality to the point of nihilism. This should not surprise us, because unlike the West, Russia never succumbed to the so-called Enlightenment, despite the Czars' periodic imbibing of Western influence.”

Cont....

......Cont

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
SECULAR VALUES:
Some proponents of traditional ethical standards and religious faith argue that the killings were at least partly the result of a weakening of faith and the unleashing of the radical values of theEuropean Enlightenment upon the modern world.

Observing this kind of trend in critical scholarship, the University of Oklahoma political scientist Allen D. Hertzke zooms in on the ideas of British Catholic writer and historian Paul Johnson and writes that:

“ [A] shift in intellectual mood has come from the critique of the perceived failures and blinders of the secular project. To be sure, this critique is not universally shared, but a vast scholarship, along with a proliferating array of opinion journals and think tank symposia, catalog the fallout from the abandonment of transcendent societal anchors. Epitomizing this thought is Paul Johnson's magisterial book Modern Times, which attacks the common Enlightenment assumption that less religious faith necessarily equals more human freedom or democracy. The collapse of the religious impulse among the educated classes in Europe at the beginning of the twentieth century, he argues, left a vacuum that was filled by politicians wielding power under the banner of totalitarian ideologies – whether 'blood and soil' Fascism or atheistic Communism. Thus the attempt to live without God made idols of politics and produced the century's 'gangster statesmen' – Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot – whose 'unappeasable appetite for controlling mankind' unleashed unimaginable horrors. Or as T.S. Eliot puts it, 'If you will not have God (and he is a jealous God) you should pay your respects to Hitler or Stalin.'

>>>>

Jacob Schiff was head of the New York
investment firm Kuhn, Loeb and Co. He
was one of the principal backers of the
Bolshevik revolution and personally
financed Trotsky's trip from New York
to Russia. He was a major contributor
to Woodrow Wilson's presidential
campaign and an advocate for passage
of the Federal Reserve Act. (p. 210)

http://www.wildboar.net/multilingual/easterneuropean/russian/literature/articles/whofinanced/whofinancedleninandtrotsky.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Schiff

Cont......

Constance,
I take a dim view of people who use this thread, not to discuss the article but to push their own agenda. Would you please desist.