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The Forum > Article Comments > Stop the uni cost disease > Comments

Stop the uni cost disease : Comments

By Steven Schwartz, published 22/1/2015

Although today's lecture theatres are more comfortable than those of the past, what goes on inside them has not changed for centuries. It takes the same amount of time to deliver a one-hour lecture as it did in the 19th century.

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Yes mate, and given most of those lectures can be videoed and on sold over the internet, i.e., the costs should be going down!

And given we now treat uni's as areas of significant research; hence the additional cost structures, why doesn't the government help foster that by proving enough venture capital to thoroughly commercialize our better ideas.

At least that way, we'd keep our best people and their better ideas here, and earn all the profits they create here, along with any tax receipts they then pay in return for the original outlays, which is sure to more they make up for them, and very substantially!

What has the Atomic Absorption Spectrometer, i.e., earned since it was commercialized, OFFSHORE!
And there has to be hundreds of similar of lose lose examples!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 22 January 2015 11:28:52 AM
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No productivity improvement? What about the use of technology to help students have a more productive time in lectures - e.g. powerpoint presentations, online quizzes, etc. When I lectured at Monash, there were no afternoons given over to sport as there were when I was a student at Canterbury in NZ some 52 years ago. (Mens sana in corpore sano.)

let me ask you, if you were a lecturer, how would you improve the productivity of lectures? How would you motivate the students to do three hours of solid, private study for every contact hour? Have you ever witnessed the large group of students socialising in the talking permitted section of the library? Have you ever had to deal with gormless masters students, who, despite courses run by library staff at the beginning of each semester on the library resources and how to access them, come to their lecturer to complain that they can not find items on their reading list that are held in the Reserve section of the library?

From my experience, the greatest need for productivity improvement is in the area of student study techniques and their motivation to do the necessary work.
Posted by Kevington, Thursday, 22 January 2015 12:57:21 PM
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I am studying online and find the format great – it allows me to study when I want and fits in with work and other commitments. I do miss the class contact with other students and the lecturers though – online forums aren’t quite the same.

Studying online hasn’t stopped fees escalating. I have studied part-time off and on for the past seven years, and in that time tuition fees have more than doubled. The average annual increase was 12.5% a year, while average inflation was 2.7%
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 22 January 2015 3:45:28 PM
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The cost disease is a scam set up by govt; They want the savings to go into a futures savings account for Med scientific research. The account has already been set up at futures savings AU. Along with savings from Medi Care and uni cut backs.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 22 January 2015 3:51:13 PM
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What is needed is to get Campbell Newman to take charge of the whole sector.

He managed to sack 20,000 totally unnecessary bureaucrats, without even a ripple in government services. Hell it even got some of the reminder, who had never done an hours work in their lives, attempting to be useful.

I'm sure he could do the same with 20,000 bureaucrats in the university sector, with equal lack of disruption, apart from a few noisy protest marches.

He could definitely could do the same with tenured academics, with a resultant dramatic improvement in the quality of instruction, & attention to their supposed work, of the remainder. I'd reckon the only people who would notice the removal of 20,000 academics would be the various pay offices.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 22 January 2015 8:16:11 PM
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I'm interested in exactly who you mean by academics Hasbeen.

From your comments it seems like you are criticizing mostly university bureaucrats, and those involved in the arts/social sciences type of courses.

However by saying "academics" you are also grouping those people together with people who teach productive courses such as engineering and science/medicine, as well as the non-teaching researcher and staff, who mostly have to fund their own salary and research costs, with the parasitic bureaucrats taking their cut from the productive members of the university.

Other than that, I agree with the informed comments made by Kevington.
Posted by Stezza, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:05:35 AM
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Stezza, If the cap fits!

A neighbours daughter, at the start of her second year of a BSc/BE course at a major Qld university, was having some trouble with her math. She spent 5 weeks trying to contact a math tutor, for some help.

Not once were her calls returned, or her emails answered.

She chucked it in. Deciding that with that level of support she was unlikely to succeed. She dropped out before having another 6 month HEX debt added to her indebtedness.

That is one less math/physics teacher we have, as that was her goal.

In my opinion the teaching of that "real" subject would be enhanced if at least one tutor was sent packing.

As an engineer myself, I am horrified at the growing number of fairy floss courses proliferating in our universities, but also am pretty disappointed at the lack of commitment today in science departments.

I saw the course notes for a BSc in environmental science at a Gold Coast campus. At the end of the second year they would not be up to year 12 high school math B or C. Is this stuff really worth us paying taxes to produce?
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 23 January 2015 11:10:06 AM
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Hasbeen, your comments do have some validity, but they're not entirely fair. I'm currently studying for a B.Eng majoring in electronics and energy systems at Griffith (Nathan, not the GC), so I think I have some qualification to comment on this.

There are a couple of factors that seem to me to be relevant.

The first is that the Qld school system is failing to produce students with a high level of skill in the STEM subjects, particularly maths. This has been widely canvassed and there is some effort being made to address it, I understand. A lack of properly qualified teachers is a serious problem, but so is the lack of parental supervision and a lower school approach to homework (there isn't any) that means kids simply don't get challenged and so develop a poor attitude to study.

Second, the load on first year maths lecturers is high. There were about 500 students in Maths 1A at Nathan last year, which is a compulsory subject for engineering, science, education students specialising in maths and aviation students. The lecturer also teaches the same subject at the GC. In tutorials there were just 2 tutors for over 100 students, meaning they more resembled mini-lectures with tests than genuine tutes.

Third, which I hate to say, is that entry standards to STEM courses are not really up to scratch in my view. Some of the first year courses have expected failure rates of 30%.

Fourth, there are so many distractions for the kids. Mobile devices are in constant use throughout lectures, so it's hard to see how complex concepts are meant to be learnt effectively.

Fifth, attendance rates at lectures are woeful. At times less than 10%.

I sit on our department student consultative committee and I know the faculty are trying to get to grips with better ways to engage students in their own learning, but it's clearly not easy
Posted by Craig Minns, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:21:42 PM
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Hasbeen,

The University of South Australia solved that problem with the Mathematics Help Centre. IIRC it's open around lunchtime every teaching day to assist students with anything they don't understand.

During my Civil Engineering degree I used their servces once, for help with matrix multiplication.
Posted by Aidan, Friday, 23 January 2015 2:00:31 PM
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"Fifth, attendance rates at lectures are woeful. At times less than 10%.

I sit on our department student consultative committee and I know the faculty are trying to get to grips with better ways to engage students in their own learning, but it's clearly not easy"

Yes Craig, but that is understandable when there is so little of interest or challenge in the courses.

The student who showed me the course notes for that environmental science course achieved distinction or high distinction in all areas, with only 8 days attendance, & simply regurgitating the notes.

Why would anyone bother getting a BSc from the place, when you were likely to be judged by your peers. I have met some of their graduates, working for water resources, & it is really frightening how little, other than slogans, they learnt.

Perhaps a few dozen less administrators & a few more tutors would help there.

Now that is great Aidan, it sounds like South Oz is getting something right.

I don't care how brilliant you are, you will have some blind spot, which just a little help can brighten. Without that help, darkness everywhere can follow.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 23 January 2015 2:57:59 PM
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The problem is not with the lectures or lecturers, per se, although obviously some have higher levels of teaching skill than others, but with the fact that the content has to be to some extent made suitable for those who are going to be asked to consume it.

It starts with the schools and the woefully inadequate standards that are regarded as acceptable. This is not just state schools, but private ones as well.

The kids are not prepared for the idea of self-directed learning, they have no idea where to start and they are surrounded by distractions, usually with no parents at hand to scaffold the learning process. The unis try to make up for that with initiaives like peer assisted study sessions, which are voluntary tutes assisted by high-achieving more senior students. It works, with kids who attend averaging much better marks, but the ones who really need it don't go.

One of the reasons I chose to leave work and go back to study was to help my own kids learn how to learn and support them to do it, since it was very obvious that the school they were attending had no interest in doing so.

Blaming our unis for the problems our kids face in the society created by the short-sightedness of their grandparents' generation (that would be your contemporaries, Hasbeen) is not the solution. In my own view we need to completely revisit the educational process. Gonski was a joke and never had a chance anyway.

For example, given the lack of home support, perhaps we need to consider increasing the time at school, including additional self-directed learning as a compulsory part of doing an academically oriented program. Perhaps we need to raise the bar for uni entry, so that kids who want to do further study clearly understand it means working harder.

You claim to be an engineer and a sailor. Try to think like it; focus on solutions instead of constantly whining about people who are.
Posted by Craig Minns, Friday, 23 January 2015 4:32:32 PM
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Craig perhaps if they set a higher entrance standard, rather than lowering the standard to what ever it takes to fill their course would help.

Really kids with OP 16, well below average, getting into a BSc course is ridiculous. Even worse is actually giving a BSc to kids who could not pass a year 10 high school math test, if we still actually still had them.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 24 January 2015 3:11:51 PM
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Hasbeen, I did suggest that raising the bar might be a possible approach. You're a man of very lengthy, wide-ranging experience, is there anything else you could suggest?

For example, could we perhaps look at getting people like you into schools to share some of your knowledge with students? Maths, as you say, is a problem area, but there are lots of people trained in maths sitting in engineering offices and science labs around the country who might be able to help, even for a couple of hours a week. That's without considering the retired professionals who might jump at the chance to do something for the community. Ditto for the science subjects.

One of the things I see people struggle with is contextualising their knowledge. Learning to do integrals is all very well, but it doesn't mean much to a school student. A professional who has used the maths to solve real problems and can explain how will help.

The problem with all of that is that thanks to people like Hetty Johnston (for all her good intentions) getting access to a school in this sort of way is stupidly complex and drawn out. I offered to help Boystown with their great program Youth Connections in 2013, when I had a couple of free months between work and study. They were very welcoming, but the process of jumping through the bureaucratic hoops was going to take several months, so that didn't happen.

The unis could do with more of the same sort of thing, being very focussed on vocational learning within the STEM courses, although I understand Uni of Melbourne is introducing a 5 year program, with early study devoted to a wide curriculum and only the final years focussing on the major. Let's see how that works out.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 25 January 2015 6:28:31 AM
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That has problems too Craig.

Almost 15 years ago now I tried to help my daughter, & one of her class mates, with year 12 math C. They had a teacher who could not actually handle the subject herself, but apparently knew enough to tell the girls that I was doing it wrong. They don't do it that way any more.

Fashion in Math, that's a new one on me, but who would know in our feminised education system & syllabus. I would be even more out of date, according to todays syllabus, I should imagine.

Fortunately QUT had a good math/physics coaching school on Saturdays, so the girls spent every Saturday for 7 months catching a train to town, because a 1,700 kid high school did not have a capable math teacher, & I did it "wrong".

Ridiculously the girlfriend is now a vet, & my daughter a full time mum, & part time accountant from home. So much time wasted studying the wrong subjects.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 25 January 2015 1:40:00 PM
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I know exactly what you're talking about, Hasbeen, but that isn't a reason to stop trying.

The integral of x squared is 1/3 x cubed is definitional. How to prove it may change to suit the curriculum: what it means doesn't.

My first battle in teaching my son how to do maths was to show him that the 'right' way isn't the only way.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 25 January 2015 1:53:29 PM
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Steven Schwartz says "Modern technology ... has had little influence on teaching and learning". He claims that lectures "remain ubiquitous". Perhaps that is the case at Macquarie University (where he was the VC), but is not everywhere.

I gave up giving lectures in 2009 and have been teaching primarily on-line since then: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/2008/08/my-last-lecture.html

I teach with a Learning Management System, to communicate with students and for them to collaborate with each other on-line. This does not require much bandwidth or computing power, but what it does need is a deep understanding of learning.

Steven Schwartz is wrong to claim "It takes the same amount of time to deliver a one-hour lecture as it did in the 19th century.". Research shows students can't pay attention for an hour, so recorded video lectures are generally much shorter than an hour (seven to twenty minutes). Students are encouraged to work actively, to cerement the knowledge.

As Steven Schwartz suggests there is a risk of uni­versities being distracted by seeking income. But my impression is that Australian universities understand they are there primarily to research and teach.

It is possible to produce distance eduction courses (as has been done for decades) with less staff time for deliver, but they are a different experience for the student.

As Steven Schwartz says students rank the UK Open University (OU) very highly, but this caters to a different market and provides a different experience to campus based institutions. Also OU was doing this before the Internet and its success does not depend on digital technology, but on careful design of distance education. Without administrators and academics trained in how to do it, this form of education does not work.

Online learning will replace most face-to-face teaching (about 80% within five years). But this will require significant resources for universities to accomplish. It would be a mistake to see this as a way to cross-subsidize small group learning and study abroad.

Australian universities need to learn to teach primarily on-line or most of their Australian and international students will be lost to overseas institutions, within five years.
Posted by tomw, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:11:08 AM
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I gave up face-to-face teaching due to uninterested students. There is a very real problem in getting them to focus. I have no answers other than to put higher entry levels in place and make passing harder.

The drive to push every Tom, Dick, and Harry into university, in my view, has had detrimental effects. Many students simply should not be there.

Additionally, university is, mostly, a left-wing institution more concerned with matters of morality than research and creating reasoned arguments.
Posted by Aristocrat, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 12:12:25 AM
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