The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > A better life, even if it's a shorter life > Comments

A better life, even if it's a shorter life : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 9/1/2015

'Old age is not a battle. Old age is a massacre': Philip Roth in Everyman

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All
Good article. I do not wish to skite but I have come to similar conclusions:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15978

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=13445
Posted by Sells, Friday, 9 January 2015 10:49:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A timely article.

The Big Med reason is particularly apt.

Drs, Nurses, Nursing home staff convince themselves that

- prolonging the life of vegitative old people wearing adult nappies for their final 15 years (standing or lying down) is a selfless and noble activity.

BUT keeping one's job, pay, profits, revenue and shareholder returns are not inconsiderable economic necessities.

Allowing people to die earlier is also unethical.

Moving into sue-able neglect and euthanasia issues.

What to do?
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 9 January 2015 10:58:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Good article.

I am up on this since in the last three years having had the care of both aged parents-in-law until they died, the first at home, the second at home until the last three weeks.

Both of their deaths were dreadful. Both of them got to the stage where they wanted to end it, but by that stage were not capable of doing it themselves. As they had made no arrangements, the result was horrible, and the last one really horrible. My wife described the death of her father as being slowly tortured to death by doctors. We got to know the nursing staff. All agreed that if you did that to a sheep or a dog, you'd be prosecuted for cruelty. And yet this is palliative care. All have made arrangements to top themselves quietly so they never get to that stage.

No sirree, the sudden dropping dead of a heart attack is far preferable to what both my parents-in-law went through; so stop worrying about how much butter you're putting on your bread while you're alive.

However, if you are slowly degenerating, lay aside some mortal drug that will despatch you straight, so you're not left pathetically asking the doctors for it, and them denying it as a criminal offence to give.

More's to the point, why should we grow more risk-averse as we get older? It's the young, who have their whole life in front of them, who should logically be most risk-averse, and the eldest least. Surely now is the time to take up sky-diving?

Oh yes, I also got sick of hearing people talking about sickness, hospitals, medical conditions, medicines, old age, palliative care, death, dying, funerals and graves.

The moral of the story is: get done all you want to do in life in good time, don't be desperately and pathetically sucking at the lees and dregs when you are in extremity, but go gracefully and be prepared to give yourself your own quietus, rather than linger in unremediable distress and indignity.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Friday, 9 January 2015 11:06:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jardine,

Another point, even if you can't accept euthanasia for religious or other reasons, is that it is a good idea to get legal advice to draw up a proper Advance Health Care Directive that will be legally binding in your state. I have done this, rejecting all life-prolonging treatment including artificial feeding or respiration, if I become incompetent. I have also appointed my younger son, who agrees with me, as Enduring Guardian and advised him to sue the hell out of anyone who goes against it.

Plantagenet,

Like you, I believe in following the money. The religious Right are often blamed, but they have lost on every other issue -- votes and property rights for women, restrictions on gambling and alcohol, contraception and abortion, divorce, Sunday trading, and so on. When the Northern Territory euthanasia legislation was struck down, I had just done a statistics class. I looked up the votes for each side, assumed that a Parliamentarian would have perhaps a 70% chance of being in favour of euthanasia (a bit less than the general public) and then worked out the probability that they would have all voted as they did by chance. Lets just say that it was infinitesimal.
Posted by Divergence, Friday, 9 January 2015 11:43:29 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Good essay - as far as it goes.
Our "culture" including its dominant Christian religion lacks any kind of Wisdom re the meaning and significance of death. It certainly lacks any kind of Wisdom which enables both the dying person, and those who are serving him or her to participate in death as a Living Process - a process of transition which always follows essentially the same sequence. This manual was produced as a guide to enabling this entirely lawful Process:
http://www.dawnhorsepress.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PID=3765

And, surprisingly to most people there is such a thing as Easy Death, which requires the necessary education for any and every one to participate in, in both their own death, and in serving the transition of others. This book contains comprehensive essays on the topic:
http://www.easydeathbook.com

This reference contains 20 or so personal stories re how the authors Wisdom & Blessing Grace helped them to serve the death of one of their intimates
http://global.adidam.org/books/instant-everybody

Two sets of references on the topic of death and dying
http://www.adidaupclose.org/Holy_Mutterances/death_and_dying.html
http://www.adidaupclose.org/death_and_dying
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 9 January 2015 11:56:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Daffy

Is it me or are all the links you've supplied some sought of:

- money-making book selling exercise

- marketed by some Yoda Guru lookalike refugee from a Tibetan cesspool?

What next? DO YOUSELF IN FOR DUMMIES?

Poida
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 9 January 2015 12:48:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Divergence, your advice re " Advance Health Care Directive" is very good. My late partner followed that idea, and while it was somewhat traumatic for those watching her die, I am sure it hastened the process and minimised her suffering once she went to hospital away from the very effective ministrations of the palliative care nurses.

David
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 9 January 2015 3:09:55 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Advance health care directive which I do have, given to my Doctor, it is now up to my Doctor to convey my wishes to a hospital if admitted, keeping in mind your Doctor after admittance does no longer have the say over your treatment once admitted, I have gone over over this many times with my Doctor that he must advise the hospital of my wishes, of course to make sure one could have more than one AHCD.
Having been a member of Exit (Philip Nitschke) but now with a Voluntary Euthanasia Society where we are trying to get VE passed through Government, at times the methods used by Philip can have an adverse effect to get this legislation through. Philip is liked by the media because of the tag "Dr. Death" he normally appears at the time in each state when legislation may be passed, consequently it is not then passed, it would be better if he stayed in the distance at these times when one feels it would be passed without his presence, Philip has his own Euthanasia methods which are his only, they do have merit if desparate.
Posted by Ojnab, Friday, 9 January 2015 6:14:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think the emphasis has to be redirected at preventative health, even if that eats heavily into the trillions earned by big Pharma, across the globe.
Many of the conditions we pay annual billions for, need never ever see the light of day, with appropriate and vastly lower cost, preventative medicine; like say, routine ch elation therapy, which has been approved medicine for over fifty years, but ran out of favor with big pharma, when all the patents also ran out.

I mean, does anyone need their arteries clogged and or in urgent need of extremely expensive bypasses.

Or need a limb amputated, solely because the blood supply was effectively interrupted; op the months of expensive rehab, that then follow.

Why aren't there laws that prevent the use of artery clogging hydrated fat, to ostensibly improve the shelf life of many processed or junk food?
Why isn't compression Oxygen therapy, par for the course, and particularly, where is has been the only thing that cured tropical or diabetic ulcers.

And how many studies have there been to ascertain just how much reduced arterial flow, contributes to type two diabetes?

I think we need to better address quality of life issues, rather than hopelessly premature use by dates, or assistance to cross over, and out of the way, when they've been artificially/prematurely reached.

And based on just sound economics, it costs just $40,000.00 per, to treat the elderly in their own home, with outsourced services, such as traveling Dr's?
Well there's no office or office staff to also pay for, and they only ever bulk bill!?

Whereas, treating people in nursing homes costs $70,000.00 per.
So even on economic arguments alone, better people be assisted to stay in and die in their own homes; rather than that of a fretting/guilt ridden rally, or high care nursing home.

And one ought to make a living will, so they're can chose what level of final care/assistance they want; as opposed to forcing their personal wish list on all others; some of who may believe in reincarnation and or personal Karma!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 10 January 2015 12:49:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
People's attitudes regarding quality of life tend to change with circumstances in my experience. One very pointed example is the case of my foster sister.
She was diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease at age 45. Her mother had died at age 48 with the disease and as we were both nurses we fully understood the process and outcome that lay a few short years ahead. Being a practical and pragmatic person, my sister organised her "retirement" kit. Knowing what my response would be, she asked if I would provide the means if she became physically unable to help herself.
As the disease progressed and she became more and more incapacitated I daily expected a request from her.
It never came. At the very end, whilst she held a living wake in her hospital room, I asked her why she had changed her mind. She responded that even when totally helpless and dependant on others she had still found pleasure in life, because her very agile brain had been kept engaged and stimulated by friends and family, right until the last few hours.
During my nursing years I came across other terminal patients who changed their mind about euthanasia as their disease progressed, deciding they weren't ready to say goodbye prematurely, despite the pain and loss of dignity in their lives.
I came to believe that those who truly wished for euthanasia would somehow find a way to do it. We don't need laws that put us at risk of taking action when it is not wanted.
Posted by Big Nana, Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:54:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Big Nana

The issue does not concern those who want to live, but those who want to die.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Saturday, 10 January 2015 3:25:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jardine, you seemed to have missed the point. People already have the ability to die if they wish, even if they need the help of a loved one. For decades, even longer, doctors have been turning a blind eye to those deaths in terminal patients that seemed to occur a little prematurely. Compassionate gp's even aid and abet in the process.
The topic was quality of life in later years and I simply pointed out that not everyone wishes to exit when their quality of life diminishes. On the contrary, many fight tooth and nail to hold off the inevitable.
Posted by Big Nana, Sunday, 11 January 2015 12:04:58 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It should always be the individuals choice as to whether they want an early exit from life..Ive seen enough people slowly die horrible deaths to know that I would want that option if I ever had the misfortune of facing a slow lingering and painful death. Whether I take up that option at the time should be totally up to me and not the legal system.
Posted by Crowie, Sunday, 11 January 2015 7:38:30 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Exactly Crowie, exactly!
Just as those who favor euthanasia, those who don't also don't wish to have the beliefs of others, even a majority forced on them.

Currently it's is possible to make a living will, which can even include being denied food and water at the end, if that is your wish, along with the instruction, you remain free to change your mind at any time.

And there comes a point, where the ill should be handed on to hospitals and professional care, particularly if the carer has a queasy stomach or faints at the sight of blood, vomit or regurgitated faces.

Such indignity as is felt, is invariably provided by the shocked audience and lack of privacy.

Nobody seems to mind when a baby needs nappies, but resent the hell out of them, when the elderly for one reason or another, usually substandard health care, obtain preventable incontinence!

Their passings could occur at the date destiny has proclaimed; rather than the whim or caprice of "distressed" rallies; least they and the manner of passing have to be repeated, in life after life.
To reach unto the Kingdom of heaven ye must be born again!

Interestingly, there are those who would defer that date, only to find, even if they owned all the gold in the world, they couldn't buy a minute longer that that decided by destiny.

However, and is the topic of the thread, quality of life in the latter years can and should be vastly improved, even on pragmatic economic grounds, as simple cost saving measures!

As opposed to managing various conditions, in order to swell the coffers of big Pharma, who surely must earn as much as 70% of their revenues, via providing extremely expensive/highly lucrative pills and potions, for old folk, who would be better served by preventative medicine, that prevented them getting the "manageable" illness in the first place!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 11 January 2015 8:51:22 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sells

By all means feel free to skite. Sorry to say that I missed your articles when they were published, but just read them and enjoyed them very much.

The matter of Advance Care Directives was raised by a few. The following link may be on interest:

https://www.tag.nsw.gov.au/advance-care-directives.html
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Sunday, 11 January 2015 11:14:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"who would be better served by preventative medicine, that prevented them getting the 'manageable' illness in the first place!"

Jolly good idea, so what punitive action, er sorry, legislative encouragement, might you and others here propose to dissuade people who (say) ride motorbikes and engage in risky sports?

What about the thousands who use illicit drugs? -Why should an alcoholic or drug user occupy a bed in IT or even in hospital?

The elephant in the room is that health policy is hopelessly idealistic and misdirected in its aim to restore everyone to peak "wellness" (the definition is broad!), when quite obviously there are those who knowingly and quite deliberately decide over and over again to trash their minds and bodies and to horrendous costs for taxpayers.

Give me ANY DAY the ninety year old who has always contributed to society, hot about, endeavored to be independent and wants to be around for the great grandchildren.

I sense a nastiness in threads like this, that has no understanding of the potential life that can be led in elder years, has no respect for the old and frankly, just wants the 'greys' to walk off in the snow so that their assets can be taken (and re-distributed to non-relatives the leftists demand).

Australia is not the best place in the world to be 'mature aged', make no mistake about that. The rudeness and disregard, even contempt, for the aged are getting worse, if that is possible. Why? What has changed the culture since WW2 to make it that way?

What about a better life, where everyone takes responsibility, chips in and strives to be the model citizen? The 'old' have generally survived because they were and are model citizens, who too care of themselves (small servings of ordinary wholesome food they prepared, for starters) did their share and paid taxes too.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 11 January 2015 1:09:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy