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The Forum > Article Comments > The economy: proposed narrative > Comments

The economy: proposed narrative : Comments

By Henry Thornton, published 2/5/2014

Did Treasury and/or successive governments really think Australia was a 'miracle economy' owed a living high on the hog for the feasible future?

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Henry Thornton like most ignore the real reasons why we had a GFC and why it continues.

The GFC was cause by the banking industry and Wall St. Bill Clinton eliminated the Glass Steagall Act back in 1998.Glass Steagall was brought in during the Great Depression to separate the banks gambling activities in derivatives from our real assets. Toxic financial instruments like Credit Default Swaps have brought down entire countries like Greece and Spain. They also made possible Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. No one has been charged let alone convicted for these criminal activities. Bernie Madoff was jailed because he stole from the elites and not the masses.

The debacle continues with more money printing. Currently our big four banks have increased their fractional reserve ratio from 1:10 to 1:70.This means a bank can have $1 worth of deposits and create $70 of loans.

We did not need a Glass Steagall Act during the Great Depression because the Govt Commonwealth Bank controlled our banks and we has State Govt banks also.

The solution is to move back to Glass Steagall and bring back Govt Banks who can create infrastructure debt free and reduce our taxes and debt. Govts do not have to borrow OS if they have their own banks.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 2 May 2014 7:23:32 AM
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Well it's hard to disagree much with Arjay, and the recent publication of 200 years worth of hard economic data, and the cause and effect reasons that data shows, why we had the Great Depression the GFC!
But most of all, why simplistic 19th century, same old same old, thinkers like Henry Thornton, are just plain wrong!
We are in our present position because of a structural deficit. Keating and Howard reduced tax by around 40 billions PA in total?
And guess what, the structural deficit is around 40 billions per! Connect the dots, PLEASE.
Had mining boom mark one not been squandered by economic illiterate Mr Howard, (quote unquote) but rather invested in a sovereign fund, we wouldn't have had to sell big cash cow, income earning corporations like Telstra, and the CBA!
This is what happens when Ideology replaces reason, and we get this sort of nonsense from both sides of the Isle, as politicians put, vested interest, their interests, (cronyism, corrupt outcomes?) and reelection, ahead of the national interest!?
A problem made far worse by the completely economically illiterate greens, and an economically incomprehensible wish list.
What to do?
Well there is now no other choice than quite massive tax reform, the like of which I've outlined in minutia, in earlier posts? [And we simply don't have the luxury of any further delay!]
And having reformed tax, just crack on with some nation building income earning projects.
It's possible to produce the world's lowest tax rate, while improving the budget position, mostly by removing unnecessary reconciliation expenditure and drones.
And it's also possible to produce the lowest energy cost, via public ownership of new carbon free, cheaper than coal thorium power; and extract our own oil.
[Private enterprise providing cheaper more efficient power, or cheaper oil? Bah humbug!]
Just these three things as sensibly engineered outcomes, will have the high tech corporations of the world and millions of self funded retirees, queuing to relocate here!
And that is exactly what we need to drag us out of the 19th century, and into the 21st!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 2 May 2014 9:27:29 AM
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the economy/must be based on fair means of exchange
just terms/we formed govt to regulate trade/but govt has been betrayed

but the fix begins..with honest lawful tender[created by treasury/off bonds bills etc they monetized[i will be trying to explain it 6 may[in court]..it begins..here

a fine means
its an offer..that you may ignore or,sign into the value..A BOND

[ITS NOT meant to be punitive..its pure promisory/REVENUE RAISING]
if your happy with the service..YOU..simply sign it anD return it TO TREASURY-banker dept/who sends it to treasury who monetize it/paying off the debt in full..to govt credit account.

see under the constituted law..
THERE IS ONLY ONE lawfull/
MEANS OF PAYING/SETTLING DEBT/POST THE BANKRUPTCY.

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 115
States not to coin money

A State shall not coin money, nor make anything but gold and silver coin a legal tender in payment of debts.

[and even better it limits the amount that can be settled in l-awfull tender

IT HAS BEEN further clarified by high court[173 of 1993]
CURRENCY ACT 1965 - SECT 16
Legal tender

(1) A tender of payment of money is a legal tender
a/if it is made in coins that are made and issued under this Act
b/and are of current weight:

[its further clarified

(a) in the case of coins of the denomination of Five cents, Ten cents, Twenty cents or Fifty cents or coins of 2 or more of those denominations--[for payment of an amount not exceeding $5]..[* but for no greater amount;

(b) in the case of coins of the denomination of One cent or Two cents or coins of both of those denominations--for payment of an amount not exceeding 20 cents *..but for no greater amount;]

get it?
higher debts are paid for simply by signature/upon the 'BILL'
OR VIA REMITTANCES SIGNED RETURNED/MONETIZED

ITS ALL ABOUT HRH EXCLUSIVE Franchise....under siegnorage
please note the debasement=treason..of her coin/her realm.

forM OF BARTER..(c)see 6 may
Posted by one under god, Friday, 2 May 2014 10:51:39 AM
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Rhrosty,

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I think the one fly in the ointment is persuading the electorate and recipients of the government largesse to forego all this munificence, because the greater part of the population vote for the government that gives them the most hand-outs with other people's money.......An effort to create a level playing field is an impossible aspiration, however virtuous and well meaning. One of the drawbacks of universal suffrage.
Posted by snake, Friday, 2 May 2014 11:13:38 AM
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What a myth, Arjay.

The GFC was a product of a lefty US president making the banks extend housing loans to low income earners, & unemployed, who had no chance of not defaulting on those loans.

Most of those bankers, being reasonably smart, & a lot smarter than a lefty president, could see the train wreck coming as a result of this tomfoolery.

They packaged their liability & flogged it off to others, not so smart The problem only arose when some of the less smart bankers started believing their own bull dust, & bought their own troubles back.

So the blame rests with that twit Clinton, or perhaps with his wife, who was, I'm inclined to believe, standing behind him pulling the strings.

And the most amusing thing about the whole saga, the yanks came close to electing her president in her own right, only avoiding that catastrophe by electing that idiot Obama. Talk about frying pan & fire stuff.

Even funnier, particularly if you are Russian, Chinese, or a conspiracy theorists, those fool yanks are still playing with the idea of electing lady Clinton to the presidency next time round.

The whole thing makes Harry Potter look like serious drama. Perhaps this is why the lefties can pretend it never happened, & was all a capitalists stuff up, not a socialists catastrophe.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 2 May 2014 11:28:53 AM
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Well Henry, is it not wonderful how you well argued comments give rise to such drivel in reply!

The GFC explains everything according to your commentators.

The GFC was misnamed . It was NOT "global". It did not cause China ( or India either) to blink and China was buying our commodities had an large and increasing rate. Tax refunds, pink bats, and useless school buildings were unnecessary. The government guarantee of Australian bank deposits was all that needed.

The so called GFC was caused by two factors

1. A moratorium system in USA restricting a lender to the mortgaged house and no recourse to the borrower's assets.
2. A securitisation system allowing the original lender to bundle mortgages and flog them, thereby escaping the consequences of dishonest and negligent lending. Making the original lender and broker , ie. companies and their employees, guarantors of loans not meeting acceptable standards, would be the answer. The rating agencies should be liable for most of what went on.

The country could save a fortune in unproductive tax agent fees and ATO employees by doing away with the churn of taxing in and giving handouts.DO away with "rebates". Line up tax with reality by giving a DEDUCTION from assessable income for childcare, reasonable cost of getting to work, health costs, income and life insurance and do away with subsidies to all but pensioners and very low paid.

Reality is that those expenses are necessary before you have any real income from which to pay tax. If tax and reality were in sync, rebates and handouts would be unnecessary.

Well qualified women with children would work while others would find it uneconomical and would devote their time to bringing up their children- the most important job in the world. The churning of handouts hides the fact that their employment is unproductive for the country as a whole.
Posted by Old Man, Friday, 2 May 2014 11:33:34 AM
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Snake:
A single stand alone expenditure tax collected via the banking system as part of their charter, deals the ATO and tax agents out.
Just this much change would hand back to business the average 7% of the bottom line, now consumed cooperating with current compliance tax issues.
The necessary amount of actual tax raised, by a small painless impost on ALL spending, without exclusions or exceptions, will raise an additional 100 billion per!
It simply has to ,given the huge level of avoidance we must also deal with, if we are to return equity to our system!
And given we would therefore actually raise more revenue, we can be more generous with the genuinely needy.
And in so doing, know that this additional largess will have to be spent on current unmet need, delayed repairs etc; and therefore improve the discretionary spend/economies in post code poverty traps.
And given a single stand alone system was operating, we could jettison all other taxes, including the GST, PAYE, PAYG, payroll tax, fuel excise and what have you.
We collect somewhere near 140 taxes, with only around 14 of them actually raising any net revenue.
The rest as you rightly point out, just churn money.
We can also save huge money with a direct funding model for all public health and education, coupled to much more autonomy!
Just this much change would save around 30%, which could be saved, used to reduce debt, or improve coal face outcomes.
The tax rate can by adjusted microscopically to alone control both inflation and stagnation, meaning interest rates can be lowered to historical lows, and left, to turbocharge the non mining economy.
And given avoidance would have been finally been nailed, add at least 25% averaged, to household disposals. Thereby allowing the immediate imposition of a non contributory, 15% super.
Moreover, the same huge tax relief, would improve the average bottom line by around 30%!
The only losers!
No longer necessary, ATO, tax agents, and all the current, too clever by half, tax avoiders, many with budgets bigger than many sovereign nations!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 2 May 2014 2:50:01 PM
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OLD MAN:
You are mostly right in your summation of the very visible causes of the GFC! The invisible cause, too much of our very finite wealth concentrating in too few hands, which is very recently identified in 200 years worth of hard economic, cause and effect data.
Money needs to circulate through as many hands as possible to create universal prosperity!
It does none of that sequestered as trillions in corporate vaults/secret bank accounts, and the like; and all too often, just to avoid tax?
It is Global however, given the 64 trillions of worthless derivatives you identified, are still working through the entire global economy, including China, which responded with debt levels twice as large as their entire GNP!?
No nation has actually accrued that much debt, without paying for it, with a virtual depression, as is the case in Greece, Spain , Portugal, Iceland and Ireland?
All the supposed recent economic recovery has been bought with more debt!
And the S will hit the F, when the recovery, (conventional, alleged) forces interest rates to rise, forcing a new, group of mortgage holders, to confront the bankruptcy wall!?
Domestic debt here is at record levels, and our foreign debt has reportedly surged past 4 trillion, and the govt thinks we need more foreign capital?
I would have thought our foreign debt burden was already far too large!?
This debt level is entirely unsustainable, and simply can't be solved with conventional wisdom, or tried and found wanting conventional economics, lest of all, thoroughly disgraced trickle down economic theory!
We need to enact new legislation, that ensures those who have created the debts, are the same ones who repay it, and simply close any loopholes that allow foreigners, to hand us, or generations yet unborn, the "can"!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Friday, 2 May 2014 3:25:41 PM
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dear henry/quote..<<..Today's blog aims to provide a draft narrative to position the tough decisions needed now to minimise future misery for many Australians.>>

clearly..the words indicate..a closed mind/TOO sure of 'future misery'
being fixeD BY jumping unto misery before its time/[here we are in the delusional illusion of market forces when its not market force..but marketed fraud.

fraud we need be the only house in the street..[read cuntry in the world]..without a mortgauge..and that because our mortgauge is the lowest but 3/that somehow this enviious position nessitates us having even further pain[read more debt burden]

its pathetic..we now need the extra p
wain..of more seling of things we paid dearly to build/so others can reap in the harvest now its built...[why forgo the big payoff..of things like telstra/commonwealth bank etc..to build more spports stadiums..more airports other can later buy up for pennies on the dollar
hen its them that need return that they stole
9 nillion we got for selling the com bank..it today pays that 9 billion back each year..that theft alone caused much pain..but then that mongrel public service scoped up the shares..[cause only they know the aim is to kill govt owning anything but debt]..and god forbid they lose pension benefits..lurks and purks

if ya sell something..
just so we can build more loss making quangoes..for their cronies....uthat belongs to all of..[Thats malfeasance/odious debt]..CRIMINAL HIGH TREASON/BY PUBLIC SERVANTS..its not us needs feel the pain

that taken by fraud cannot gain/say clear title
thus close that public service slush fund..and take back the bank
[THERE IS THE 20 BILLION INCOME HOWARD/KEATING THREW their MATES WAY

we need simply put them in jail
take back the proceeds of crime
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 3 May 2014 7:35:49 AM
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YOU MUST FORGIVE ME henry
the thing is you sound like a spin doctor..plus despite being clearly a liberal shill/or a public official talking via alias..saying bull like this

<<>.that belongs to all of us..
who is us..all of us or some of you?
now i see the words..i see its not your words/but with my computer issues i cant be bothers downloading youir damm words yet again[they tend to freeze my computer]..but damm it/i know its public servants slowing the nett down

the web high jacked along with our utilities..now not owned by us the people/your master..when the servants have opend their own slush fund/by stealing the value from our public services

then you double the damm price of the services
now you want more?..you cant simply do it by infastructure bond..but no we must suffer..IM SO OVER MOUTHS LIKE YOU DOING THINGS UNDER THEIR MORE REAL SOUNDING NAMES

LET ALONE BY MUGGINS LIKE YOU Airing the lattest green greed take over [pain we must suffer..as if we havnt suffered enough allready

op..damm over the limit[bullslit..THEN DELETE MY EDIT]..its the latest freaking way you play with my freaking right ro speak..bah on ya pathetic system..its not our austerity thats over due.
Posted by one under god, Saturday, 3 May 2014 8:04:46 AM
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State govts, are proposing they have a right to levy tax restored!
Then compete with each other, for income tax paying Australians?
This is more of the same steam age nonsense, that pits Australian against Australian, as made manifest, before we became a federation. And we had to have different rail gauges, import export duties collected at state borders etc.
The excuse trotted out this time?
Raising their own tax, would enable them to fully and independently fund health and education! Yeah right!
Conversely, if the federal govt assumed full responsibility for all public health and education, the poorest smallest states wouldn't find themselves seriously disadvantaged, with their populations responding by relocating to the bigger richer states!
It's a recipe for disaster for the smaller states like Tassie S.A., W.A; as well as the ACT, the NT and to a lessor extent, Queensland!
This is one of those too clever by half schemes, invented arguably by empire building bureaucrats,(complex rationalists) simply seeking to shore up their own positions?
Many of which would be forfeit if we just had more direct federal funding, regional autonomy and bulked up, but far less expensive local govt!
The state govts, without an ability to legally raise their own tax, must act as just middlemen, receiving and distributing Federal funds.
And indeed, adding an additional layer of costs, which costs us around 30%, as entirely unnecessary service fees?
Money which could be saved by a direct funding model, predicated on a simple pro rata formula?
A lot of the saving the govt is seeking to find, would be unnecessary, if we would just eliminate all govt waste and double handling!
Yes sure, that would result in smaller govt across the board!
Even more so, with decent tax reform and simplification!
Isn't what conservative thinkers like Henry always rabbit on about!
I don't understand the very obvious reluctance on the part of alleged conservative thinkers?
Perhaps it's just an inbuilt aversion to real reform and the inherent downsizing, that also reduces the amount of personal power wielded?
Perhaps perceived personal power trumps real, downsizing, reform?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Saturday, 3 May 2014 9:48:53 AM
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Old Man says that the GFC is not the main problem because it did not affect China. Thanks Old Man, you have proved my point.

China has many Govt Banks that create infrastructure debt free. The same is true of Russia. China can grow at 12% pa while the West is lucky to get 3%.

We in Australia no longer have any Govt banks,so unless we sell off all our assets cheaply, there will not be enough money for our country to function. We are the debt bitches of the big US/British banks known as the Rothschilds, JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Goldman Sachs,Citibank etc

When even your inflationary money get created as debt, you are totally enslaved because in this climate real growth is a small fraction of the Quantitative Easing ie money printing they create as debt.

When your average house price is 10 times your average yearly salary, a big correction is assured. Our economy is based upon services, flogging of energy/resources, Govt bureaucracy, inflated real estate prices and increasing debt to prop it up.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 3 May 2014 10:37:43 PM
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its sad arjay..that people fail to see this ban*king system/needs ever bigger debts..whEN WILL THEY LEARN/ALL WARS ARE BANK*ER WARS
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/allwarsarebankerwars.php

MIKE EXPLAINS MUCH OF IT

http://whatreallyhappened.com/podcasts/hourtitle3.m3u

but there are so many proofs here
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/enron-2-0-wall-street-wants-manipulate-state-energy-markets-just-like-manipulates-every-market.html

I WOULD LOVE A THREAD BASED ON EACH ONE
the link..explains much..of whats is really happening..STEP BY STEP
and get better at the end..

how to tell folks of how much these people love us dead

IGNORANCE..is no excuse/history repeats its hysteria till we wake-up
IF YOUR NOT PART OF THE Solution/YOU ARE the problem

http://rss.infowars.com/20140502_Fri_Alex.mp3

who is not quickened by Him as the Life, and taught by Him as the Truth, to come by Him as the Way. By Christ, as the Way, our prayers go to God, and his blessings come to us; this is the Way that leads to rest,..THE REST IS UP TO IS.. we must try to make sense..of the mess...TO WALK FEARLESSLY ONTO THE FIELDS[PLAINS/REALMS..OF THE BATTLE AND SAY WAR IS OVER..PEACE HAS COME

AS THE LINK SAYS..I say to you I do not speak
on My own initiative, but of the initiative..of the Father abiding in Me/thee/he and we..who does the teachings..of His works.
http://biblehub.com/john/14-11.htm

but its wasted..till they recognize true value[r4v]
Posted by one under god, Sunday, 4 May 2014 7:49:50 AM
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Yes UOG they are slow learners. Barnaby Joyce for a short while proposed a new farmers bank but soon went quiet on this issue. Our pollies are either too scared or corrupt to take on the big bankers.

The CEC is the only political party that really pushes this subject.http://www.cecaust.com.au/ Our banks are not safe and the Govt cannot bail them out since they have $21 trillion in off sheet gambling toxic derivatives and only $3.5 trillion in assets which are our over inflated mortgages. The derivative obligations take precedence over all other bank liabilities. This is why we need a Glass Steagall Act to protect depositors and mortgage holders.

Dr Paul Craig Roberts said in an interview with Hereward Fenton that the USA is maintaining the Reserve Status of the US $ by getting countries like us to depreciate our currencies. It works like this. All our Banks are 40% owned by the likes of JP Morgan, Citibank, HSBC etc. These big banks are also part owners in the US Federal Reserve. Our banks have to borrow from Central Banks like the Fed who create it from nothing and then put their own margin on top before loaning to us. So we are paying to have our currency depreciated via inflation and thus prop up the US $ since the profits go back to US banks.http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

Our dollar will continue to fall against the US $ because we were told to create inflation to prop up the US dollar.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 4 May 2014 9:40:21 AM
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Ajay,
I agree with the creation here, of a brand new peoples' bank!
A good place to put all the new billions of new tax, we would get if we simply stopped allowing avioders to avoid.
The only way to prevent multinational entities, often with budgets bigger than many sovereign nations, from being able to avoid, is through the creation of an unavoidable simple transparent system!
Big multinationals like Google and Apple need to remit their income or "earnings" via the domestic banking system.
If if that system were obliged to impose a small 4.8-5% expenditure tax on all expenditure, withdrawals, or remittances, then the current tax avoiding entities would pay tax in absolute relation to the profits they take here!
And given how much is avoided, add as much as 100 billions to annual revenue!
However, I just don't see any champion of fiscal justice on either side of the isle, I believe, just too many brown noses, seeking to serve personal post politics interests?
Just look at recent ICAC revelations, to actually give more weight to my theory!?
Failing that, we probably need to make the GST apply to everything. Currently the GST raises some 50 billions, which is handed back as a states tax.
Applying it to all goods and services, would raise 130-150 billions per.
We could soften the blow, by doubling pensions, which would then top out at around 78 billions per. Meaning that pensioners, could afford to pay any and all extra surcharges.
Even then state share of GST could double, meaning they could be asked to completely fund their own public health and education, without putting the most wealthy and powerful offside.
That however, will not solve the problems that await around the corner, when we hit or traverse through peak minerals, and therefore our economy will have no other choice but to ride an accelerating downward spiral, with disastrous consequences for many!
Your point about China's banking sector and practices are well made, however, the joker in the pack for them, is their huge national debt level!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 4 May 2014 10:42:42 AM
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You can listen to the interview here on Truth News Radio Australia; http://www.truthnews.com.au/web/radio/story/2014_03_28_paul_craig_roberts_on_venezuela_ukraine_and_the_collapse

Dr Paul Craig Roberts amongst his many achievements was the assistant secretary to the US treasury during the Ronald Reagan years. He has enormous knowledge and perceptions into what is really happening.

It is just a matter of time for the US $ to lose its reserve status as number 1 currency. The US Oligarchs see the take over of both Russia and China as the way of saving their empire. They are considering a nuclear war or bluffing Russia and China into selling off their Govt Banks like we did and opening their economies up to their predatory form of Capitalism. I cannot see Vladamir Putin backing down. Make no mistake we are at a very dangerous period in our history.

The West is raising tensions so much between us and Russia/China that will make war inevitable. It is just a matter of time of for the collapse of the US $ and the US has to make this decision soon because they will lose their military advantage over the East.

Malcom Fraser is right, we need to grow up as a country and seek our independance. One scenario from our think tanks is that the USA might give Australia to the Chinese to pay off their debts. China with a huge pop need land and we could do nothing about it.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 4 May 2014 10:49:34 AM
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IN court tomorrow
court 20 brisbane maji strait/curt/stanley st
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=10

this thread will get special mention[the first will be the last]
Posted by one under god, Monday, 5 May 2014 7:45:46 PM
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