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The Forum > Article Comments > Whither the Liberal conscience? > Comments

Whither the Liberal conscience? : Comments

By Max Atkinson, published 17/4/2014

However that may be, the views of Vanstone and Brandis suggest the spirit of Mill is still alive in the Liberal party, and not wholly confined to the world of business, property and entrepreneurs.

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Edward, thank you for your thoughtful response, much of which I agree with. I have one minor objection and one which is fundamental. First, I am aware of the difference between classical liberal philosophy and the lazy pragmatism of modern political parties, which I see as a betrayal of community values; but it is not hard to understand, as you point out.

I reject your suggestion that the government, to be ‘liberal’, should find out and act on what most Australians think about an issue. This is the antithesis of a liberal philosophy because it permits government, in the name of the people, to do what it likes, including banning opposition parties and arresting dissidents.

There is a crucial difference between taking principles seriously (by acting on one’s own judgment of their requirement) and acting on a popular opinion of what these principles require. There is no space here to defend the distinction but if you are interested you will find a number of overlapping articles in OLO and in the Tasmanian Times.

Max Atkinson
Posted by maxat, Sunday, 20 April 2014 9:02:15 AM
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Once upon a time I had a cutout of a cartoon strip from a paper (I forget which one) in it the boss arriving at work says to a worker "Isn't it a nice day", the response was, "I don't know, I'll have to put it a vote of the rank and file!" Well I think it's a nice day, says the boss! Right, "everybody out" screams the worker, we will not be told by management that it is a nice day!
Posted by Jon R, Sunday, 20 April 2014 11:53:13 AM
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Lenin was a rouge and a liar, who conned the Labor movement, (who he had "removed") into supporting his climb to ultimate power, only to be replaced by a bigger bastard, a mass murdering Stalin!
Marxism, Leninism and Stalinism are all very different, just different as communism and Buddhism, which many American Leaders, thought were one and the same thing!
Cooperative capitalism, is a very foreign idea to most capitalists, where, thanks to completely foreign to basic human nature, individualism, the rich just get richer, the divide between the rich and poor simply widens, and the less well of have even less.
Did you know,i.e., that the top 85 richest persons in the world, share as much wealth as the bottom 50% of the world's population, or the poorest.
If thoroughly disgraced trickle down rationalism had a single leg to stand on, the above example, would be going the other way, and the minimum wage would not have stood still, in real terms, for around the last thirty years, in the land of the dollar bill!
Nor would their health budget be nearly double ours, yet leave nearly 40% without any cover.
And we here in Oz, face the very real prospect of becoming a banana republic/third world nation, when we run out of minerals, and climate change has seriously impacted on global food security!
We do have a chance to quite massively turn all of this around, via cooperative capitalism, investing in our own people and their better ideas, eliminating the profit demanding middleman, and other equally parasitical, get rich quick schemes!
Or just stop doing what we've always done, and so on.
Practical bipartisan pragmatism, could see us develop and grow our economy, via the worlds lowest real tax take, and the cheapest energy! It's not rocket science, or just not that hard!
As Susie Q might have said, Can the can, and I know that you know what I mean!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Sunday, 20 April 2014 2:43:11 PM
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While we're calling Lenin a "bastard" let's remember all the world leaders of the capitalist world that brought us World War One - the war that created the 1917 Russian Revolution; a war which involved over *16 million deaths* and many more injured horribly - some as a consequence of chemical warfare. Lenin made 'extreme ends and means calculations' it is true; and his pursuit of Terror, labour militarisation etc discredited the cause of socialism for many. Kautksy, Luxemburg, the Mensheviks - anticipated as much. But why the double standards?
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 21 April 2014 8:28:45 PM
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Dear Tristan,

There is no excuse for the First World War. In one sense it was the imperialist powers who had vast empires fighting the powers which would have liked to have empires. Germany had some colonies and would have liked more. Those who sent men against machine guns to be massacred were scum. However, Lenin was also scum. The US was lied into the war. One of the causes given was the sinking of the Lusitania. However, the Lusitania was carrying armament in the hold which made it a legitimate target.

One of the excuses for Lenin was that czarism was corrupt and oppressive. However, Lenin overthrew those who got rid of the czar and adopted many of the features of czarism as I pointed out in a previous post.

A double standard? Unless I missed something no previous post has defended capitalism or those who set up WW1. It is a straw man type argument to bring up something that no one has said and argue against it.

There are great social inequities. One thing that has lessened those inequities is the union movement. Lenin reduced the union movement in the USSR to be merely a transmission belt for party line propaganda. No strikes or other union activity that would challenge the party management was allowed. The USSR was a worker's state that silenced the workers.
Posted by david f, Monday, 21 April 2014 9:15:25 PM
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David I'm not accusing anyone here personally of having double standards; But I am saying there are a lot of other people out there who do.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Monday, 21 April 2014 9:34:41 PM
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