AJ/Quote..<<..I have never known of any Christian who does this…

<<They create..a divide between the workings..of God and the workings of the world.>>

aj/Unless something bad happens,..of course. Then it’s suddenly the fault..of humans because God..granted us more free will..than even he has himself.>>

aj..you go from beginning point..[never xtianS..DO THIS..
to saying..*we say..WE HAVE MORE FREEWILL THAN GOD..[MATE PLEASE..THINK]

IF THATS..your fundamental point
[god has no free will]..its little excuse..to deliver a lie

please present..PROOF..god has no..LESS FREEWILL]..THAN ME/YOU..ETC

while WE ARE AT IT..please present proof..of big bang
[ie..was it..BY..the brane theory?..BRANE THEORY..MEANS TWO OPPOSING 'Dimensions..BUMPED TOGETHER[..lol....without naming them..light dark/heaven/hell..without calling them..anything..YET IN THE BIBLE IT NAMES THEM..'HEAVEN/EARTH']

THEN..*LET THERE Be..light[bang]

but..big bang..began with..the two brane/realms colliding..two opposite worlds..[FREE-WILL]

that belongs/to god[ditto 'natural selection..ditto..
survival..of the fittest/;GODS..[science IS VERIFIABLE..PRESENT YOUR PROOF]

THOSE ASSUMING/SCIENCE..FACT,,ARE DECEIVED

GOD ALL-WED..THAT FREEWILL..so you could see
he allows it..that dont mean..he dont have it...OR HAS LESS.

<<>.For some reason,..it was important/to him..that we be able to commit evil deeds,>>

that we learn..the bitter fruits of the tree of knowing/KNOWLEDGE*
it began with assuming..nakedness a sin..IT ENDS..ONCE WE ALL SEE GODS IDEA/good-will..ends in grace/mercy..[the buck stops with him*

<<.. when not even he himself..can this due to his nature.>>wrong*

GOD IS..ALL SELF*..[ALL/selves/all living.
[THAT..YE DO TO THE LEAST..ye did to..the most*]

ITS NOT ouR Smallness..we fear[but our greatness
jesus added..and the greatness..in other*

LOVE GOD
BY TRYING TO LOVE other*

<< Apparently the inability..to do wrong..would make us like robots, but not him.>>

what higher proof do you need..you made you..the robot..not god.

we could do..like the atheist/foundation says..retrain/educate you ignorant..but god says no johan,.,freewill..only

none come to me.. but by love grace mercy..ie[service to other][as you saw..our beloved Christ do..[nonE but..by the way as christ..walked..the talk..of freewill.

we are..the living god within..revealing himself to himself
if you were making law..for you..[thyself]..would you takeaway..freewill..in yourself...of course not

mr phillips..this is satans realm...he do like..abusive-freewill..[ie..we do..his will]..
thus this realm exists..TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE..

chose sides..YOUR WITH FREEWILL OR NOT*...regardless present..proof..
NAME THE FIRST..'LIFE-genus'..AND WHAT..genus..IT 'EVOLVED'..INTO.[by science-proof]

IF NOT..BRANE-THEORY/WHAT..MADE..the..'BANG'

Exactly, Trav.

>>...burden of proof simply means you're obliged to provide support for your view<<

Which, in the case of a negative, is structurally impossible.

At the risk of being slightly flippant, that is akin to asking me to justify my view that the concept of time travel is pure fiction. There are, and have been, absolutely no examples that have any foundation in reality, yet there is an overflowing shelf of literature on the subject. Similarly UFOs, alien life forms visiting Earth, CIA responsibility for 9/11 etc. etc.

The difference, as has been pointed out, is faith. Faith does not require evidence of any kind, simply an internal conviction to believe. Which - apart from any other consideration - explains the existence on this planet of a plethora of different "religions", each with faith in their own interpretation of literature, hearsay and oral histories.

(It also explains conspiracy theorists, of course, but that is at another mental level entirely)

I have absolutely no interest in converting you to my viewpoint, simply because it is patently obvious that words will have no effect on a conviction, based on a belief, based upon faith. This Forum is ample evidence of this fact.

I do however have an abiding interest in the thought processes involved, on both sides of the "faith divide".

PERICULES..i admit..to having had faith..in science
till i learned..it has feet of clay.[you arE A MAN OF LOGIC..please name THE SCIENCE..proofs..of first life by chance..[wHAT SPECIES GENUS]..FORMED..BY CHANCE?

you have proof..present it..or be revealed to have faith[not science]

lets be honest..most of the science of evolution..is by faith alone
bUT THE SCIENCE ISNT TRUE SCIENCE..they been duped*..[faith in the false evolution science god..IS FAITH.

SOME TRUST THE ACTUAL BIBLE
show me where the evolution bible is..

name names..what first living geNUS?
WHAT THE NEXT 'EVOLUTION'..BY WHAT SCIENCE PROOF?

fill ijn some gaps for those having faith in your faith

mate how was the world 'created'..by which 'chance'
what made the 'change'..IF ENERGY CANT BE CREATED NOR DESTROYED..how can your 'science'..predict a beginning or end?

mater science is fraud..you got faith
just like us..but you canT SAY GO TO PAGE 1..LINE ONE..AND THATS WHAT WE HAVE FAITH..IN*

SHOW ME..THE SCIENCE BEGINNING BIBLE
SHOW ME JUST ONE EVOLUTION INTO NEW GENUS EVER*
[LET ALONE ONE CHANGE OF GENUS BY 'science'..[you been deceived bloke*]..IF YOU CANT DEFEND YOUR BELIEF..STOP ASKING US TO VALIDATE OURS

OURS IS FACTS BASED..BY THE BOOK
present yours..beginning and process..name one genus SCIENCE HAS MADE

NO EVOLUTION..INTO NEW GENUS EVER RECORDED*
PRESENT PROOF OF CONCEPT..ot allow your acolytes to see you only got faith..too.

AJ,

It sounds like you and I know or know of different fundamentalists! And different "sophisticated" Christians to boot.

Seems like we have a different idea of faith too. I'm not quite sure if there's any point repeating this but allow me: for me, my own faith and belief in God and Christianity encourages me to think. And historically many have shared my understanding. As the editor of this website wrote recently, if this was 600 years ago he would've been a Bible publisher. Literacy, thought and Christian faith go hand in hand. Just check out the original mottos and histories of the great Universities of the world. Eg: Yale (Founded by clergymen) or Oxford (Motto- The Lord is my Light).

George, are you suggesting we dispense with the concepts of evidence and proof altogether because they are too ambiguous, unless we’re talking about strict black and white topics such as mathematical equations?

Pericles, I still don’t completely understand why you think this is “structurally impossible”. If you are making a claim then you need to show some support for that claim, regardless of what that claim is. And I maintain that virtually any claim is theoretically capable of being supported, regardless of whether it can be decisively proven. I’d be interested to know your thoughts on Alvin Plantinga’s comments in a recent interview when he talks about Russell’s Teapot and argues that actually, we have evidence against “teapotism”.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2014/02/09/is-atheism-irrational/?hp=&rref=opinion

On faith: faith should be seen as trust, as opposed to “blind faith” and it should be supported by some degree of evidence. My idea of evidence is a broader one than the narrow view adhered to by many people.

Don't agree, Trav.

>>If you are making a claim then you need to show some support for that claim, regardless of what that claim is<<

But thanks for introducing the unashamedly frivolous teapot argument.

[Russell's thoughts] "...the absence of evidence is evidence of absence, and is enough to support a-teapotism..." [Plantinga's response]... "Clearly we have a great deal of evidence against teapotism. For example, as far as we know, the only way a teapot could have gotten into orbit around the sun would be if some country with sufficiently developed space-shot capabilities had shot this pot into orbit. No country with such capabilities is sufficiently frivolous to waste its resources by trying to send a teapot into orbit. Furthermore, if some country had done so, it would have been all over the news; we would certainly have heard about it. But we haven’t. And so on."

Which is, of course, merely another way of avoiding the key issue: if you believe that there is a teapot in orbit around the sun, then you are required to do so on faith alone, since there is absolutely no evidence of it. Proposing that a sane person would use "we would have read about it, surely" to support a-teapotism can hardly be said to constitute an intelligent contribution to the debate.

I am sure that you will find, somewhere, a written description of UFOs. That is neither evidence for or against the proposition that UFOs exist. The crucial point is that they have not been demonstrated to exist, except in someone's imagination.

I feel precisely the same way about religion. Much is written on the subject, from myriad points of view, each describing "God" in their own, unique way.

To me, these descriptions are as real to the individual as the images of UFOs are to the ufologist. But it is pointless mounting any kind of argument against their existence, simply because they only exist in the minds of the believers.

Those who have "faith" have no interest in proof or disproof of their position. They just... believe.

I love..the selective blindness
perry dont got a clue..re the first loving genus
because his science dONT//know*

.[AND PERRY IS ONE OF TH.MORE ECLEVer ones/..he would know..the first living thing..WILL/would have its scientific name and genus

IE SOMETHING LIKE..alpha annumus...origona..[genus]
..or somethingequaly ..greek..or latin..or math..[discriptive]..by what some scientist..thinks it it..THEIR THESIS.

or maybe prOto/apha AMIUS..GENUS
[EVOLVED]..INTO BETA ANIMUS..[GENIU]..that evolved into cellular animus..FLI0RA /FAUna animus/minerta/traNsiTiona [etc]

thing is..i just made them up
but per ridicule..*SIMPLY *IGNORES..THE QUESTION

why ?

he lives in faith..according to him it wasnt a teapOT
AND IF A TPOt [EVOLVED]..IT HAS ITS ExSIStANCE..[reason for being..AS ITS 'PRIMA VALIDUS'..replicatus

OR IF it was puT THERE BY ALIANS..[who dont drink tea in that place where gravity dont function]

anyhow regardless of how clever,,even he dont know
thus takes alien tea Pot EVOLUTION..AS IF IT WAS PROVED..

*yet he the most clever guy at the forum cant name names..

lol..he *has never created any [neo]..new-life..
[nOR hIS OWN Genus][HAS NEVER SEEN AN EVOLUTION INTO OTHER GENUS]..yet still has faith in a godless theory..cant even use his language skill to wing it

pericles..MATE
LIFE ;..WHAT WHY WHERE WHEN WHO?

GO Ahead..make my day*
DONT RUN AWAY AGAIN..PLEASE..

its no shame to admit you dont know..[thats why god put us here for]..Just to know*..we couldnt replicate it*...ever..*..its foolish not to admit..even that.