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The Forum > Article Comments > Independent schools contribute significantly to Australian education > Comments

Independent schools contribute significantly to Australian education : Comments

By David Robertson, published 31/1/2014

The new school year has kicked off with many of the familiar themes once again in the media spotlight including, unfortunately, a revival of the old public versus private schooling debate.

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"The continued growth in independent school enrolments clearly indicates that parents believe they receive value in terms of the investment they make in school education."

Of course they 'receive value', because their personal choices are involuntarily subsidised by the poor bloody taxpayer. I would 'receive value' too, if I could choose to drive a Bentley for half price and pass the remainder of the tab on to the taxpayer. Let parents pay the full cost of 'independent' schooling for their children, and we'll see how much value they feel they are getting then.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 31 January 2014 7:34:57 AM
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Of course “Independent schools contribute significantly to Australian education”, but to the extent that they socially segregate Australian children, they detract from the overall achievement level of the country.

Unfortunately, the Gonski panel’s endorsement of the Howard government’s SES funding model (Recommendations 2, 3, 20 and 21) promotes social stratification because it says the more you earn the less your child gets. Thus, the wealthy, the upper middle, the middle middle, the lower middle and the poor all have to concentrate in their own schools because the funding system segregates them. A school that wants to take both middle class and poor students will not be able to because the presence of middle class students will cut its government funding and thus push its fees up and thus drive out the poor, who will end up at the public school.

Despite some rearguard sloganeering by some, the fight for state aid was won 40 years ago. The issue is the method of its distribution. We need a model that supports private schools that are inclusive, as I proposed in my submission tothe Gonski review. I can no longer refer readers to that submission because the Abbott government has “disappeared” all Gonski submissions form the departmental website.
Posted by Chris C, Friday, 31 January 2014 8:16:56 AM
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Dear Chris C,

Agreed.

And I think it is pretty obvious that our slide in the world rankings has gone hand in hand with the increase in the proportion of private over public school enrolments. The system is certainly benefiting some school age children but the damage it is doing to the achievements of the group as a whole is evident.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Friday, 31 January 2014 10:22:47 AM
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Why is it "unfortunate" that this topic is being raised again?

After all there are mega-bucks involved and the new government is supposedly committed to trimming back government expenditures especially to those who dont really need it, thus encouraging them via the "discipline of the market" to stand on their own two feet.

Doesnt the usual conservative definition of independent mean not being dependent on the government for financial support.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 31 January 2014 10:39:12 AM
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There is one purpose that the independent school system does not serve. The public school system accepts all students regardless of class, religion, ethnicity or income. Thus students meet other students of different backgrounds. They learn together, grow together and as adults are prepared to mix with others from different backgrounds.

The independent school segregates students generally according to religion and indoctrinates them with the religious mumbojumbo of their backers. Parents have a right to segregate their children from the general population. However, that right should not be subsidised by the taxpayer.

Elimination of the subsidies to independent schools would probably mean a flow of children into the public schools. This might occasion more taxes to pay for better public schools as parents would pressure government to do more. Better public schools would benefit Australia by producing more well-educated Australians in a world where a country's economy to a large extent depends on the educational level of the general population.
Posted by david f, Friday, 31 January 2014 12:09:43 PM
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Davidf

The independent school system accepts all students regardless of class, religion, or ethnicity, and provide scholarships for some of those that cannot afford the fees. Students meet other students of different backgrounds. They learn together, grow together and as adults are prepared to mix with others from different backgrounds. Less than 50% of the students are of Anglo back ground, and whilst being a church school limits the religious content to a single fortnightly religion and ethics class, and a bi annual service.

To top it off independent students cost the government about 60% of what public school students do, and get far better results.

The growing strength of the private schools is going a long way towards compensating for the failures of the Teachers' Union dominated public sector.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 1 February 2014 11:57:25 AM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

That is simply not true. The independent schools are class and religion segregated. The segregation exists to a very high degree.

There is a cost to that segregation.

I know you like to bash the unions, but the public schools are not failures. Eliminate government funding for the independent schools and devote that funding to improve public schools. There is nothing wrong with having a Teacher's Union and allowing that union a voice.

Independent schools are a parent's choice, and the general public should not have to pay for that choice. If the independent schools were really independent my taxes would not pay for them. It might help to stop the lying of calling them independent. There are no independent schools in Australia. Truly independent schools would not receive state subsidies.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 1 February 2014 12:29:25 PM
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David,

With all due respect, generally the people that make claims about private schools like you do, have seldom any experience of private schools.

Private schools draw most of their pupils from the surrounding area, and the ethic and other make up reflects this. The mix of Mosman High students does not differ from Redlands, this is also true of most other schools. My son's maths class includes a Malaysian Muslim, a Jew several Chinese and an Indian, amongst others and this is a GPS school.

As most private schools are not the high end Scotts college and the majority (about 75%) would close if the subsidy was removed flooding the existing public schools with a 60% increase. At the cost of education public school students costs the governments nearly double what private schools cost, the public schools would be left with less per pupil, crowded facilities, and based on existing outcomes results would plummet.

This is precisely why Labor while ideologically opposing private schools have not been stupid enough to abolish them.

As for the teachers' union, my wife worked as a teacher for a while, first in the public sector and then in the private sector, and is absolutely scathing of the protection offered to the significant incompetent teachers who were often paid more than other senior capable teachers simply based on seniority.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 1 February 2014 1:53:07 PM
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SteeleRedux,

You are right, though I do not jump to the conclusion that the increase in private education is the cause of our small relative decline, just as I don’t jump to the conclusion that it was caused by the modest increase in expenditure over various periods. It is not the existence of private schools per se that does any damage. It is the social stratification that follows from the Howard Gonski funding model. If all private schools were free, they would not promote social stratification. This social stratification was ameliorated by the ‘no losers’ compensation of the Howard government, but the Labor government decided to phase this ‘no losers’ compensation out and force all schools onto the Howard SES model, a fact you will not read in any media coverage, so the social stratification will probably increase over the long term under the Gonski model.

Shadow Minister,

The teacher unions do not dominate the public system, at least in Victoria. If they did, teachers’ pay would not be far worse than it was four decades ago, their teaching conditions would not be worse than they were three decades ago, and their security of employment would not be worse than it was two decades ago. Nor would there be national testing or A-E reporting, as both were vehemently opposed by the teacher unions. The oft-made claims of union domination are, like the other oft-made claims of a highly centralised system, the ineffectiveness of smaller classes and huge increase in real expenditure, completely untrue. They are just repeated ad nauseam so no one even asks for evidence.
Posted by Chris C, Sunday, 2 February 2014 4:34:28 PM
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Chris,

I cannot comment on Victoria, but the public schools in NSW are virtually a closed shop, and the principles of the schools have only a minimal input into the hiring of teachers, and no power to dismiss them for anything other than criminal conduct.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 3 February 2014 12:06:35 PM
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Shadow Minister,

The media always writes as if NSW equals Australia. NSW is more centralised than Victoria, yet its results in NAPLAN are very similar to Victoria’s, telling us that school management autonomy does not make much difference.

The same accusation re “no power to dismiss teachers” is made here, but it simply is not true. Principals can initiate dismissal proceedings, but they have to follow natural justice principals. They can’t just sack a teacher on a whim. My experience tells me this is a good thing.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 6 February 2014 12:57:36 PM
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Chris,

With all due respect, While principals can initiate disciplinary procedures, most know that trying to do so will invoke the wrath of the unions and zero support from the department. I personally have never heard of a public school teacher being dismissed for incompetence. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

The hybrid option that Pynne is looking at where 25% of public schools are converted to fully funded independently run schools sounds like it has a good chance of improving the country's achedemics.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 February 2014 1:23:33 PM
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Shadow Minister,

The claim that principals “will invoke the wrath of the unions” if they initiate disciplinary procedures is often made, but no one making it ever gives any evidence. It’s just one of those beliefs that gets repeated and repeated and repeated. Teachers are dismissed regularly, but rarely for the obvious reason that most teachers are not incompetent. Nor are principals necessarily competent and honest.

The union’s role is to ensure proper processes are followed. I had an experience with an acting principal who had been in the school one week and who decided to dismiss me as the school timetabler, despite the fact that I had saved the school $208,000 (four teachers’ salaries) by devising a curriculum structure to replace the unstaffable one the school administration had decided upon. The administration needed a scapegoat, you see. I took the acting principal to the Merit Protection Board as what was done to me was nothing but unprofessional bullying. I had an AEU representative. The acting principal also had an AEU representative. His AEU representative argued that I should have been dismissed as a teacher, not just as a timetabler, showing that the AEU in fact supports the bullying of teachers. The MPB ordered my re-instatement. Some details are in my submission to the parliamentary inquiry into workplace bullying. It can be found at
http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=ee/bullying/subs.htm
though the full submission of 158 pages with the supporting documentation was not put on the website. The role of the union is to ensure proper processes are followed.

The evidence (see http://www.saveourschools.com.au/) shows that school autonomy does not improve student results, and, as I keep saying, Victorian schools have had autonomy of one sort or another for over 40 years. They don’t need Christopher Pyne’s ideo-illogical slogans.
Posted by Chris C, Saturday, 8 February 2014 12:41:29 PM
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Chris,

To quote from PISA:

"PISA results show that in higher-performing systems, schools have more autonomy, with incentives and the capacity to improve. In the school systems of Hong Kong-China, Japan, the Netherlands and Korea, for example, schools have more responsibility for establishing student disciplinary policies, student assessment policies, approving students for admission to the school, and choosing which textbooks are used and which courses are offered."

As for your particular run in with the acting principal, I am not going to go through the 319 submissions to see your submission, my comments are:
I claimed that the unions make it impossible to fire incompetent teachers. This example does not contradict this.
Secondly, we have only your unverifiable version of an event in which you were involved,
Thirdly, unfair dismissal can be fought with or without a union,
and finally one example is not a trend.

In public schools there are many fine teachers, but also many incompetents, and principals are unable to get rid of them. Again, if I am wrong please give me an example where a teacher was fired for incompetence.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 February 2014 8:57:05 PM
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Shadow Minister,

Please pardon the delay in my response. Other duties took over.

There is a difference between curriculum autonomy, which is what your quote deals with, and management autonomy, which the evidence says does not work.

My submission was number 248. I am sorry I did not include the number in my earlier post.

My example shows a union trying to fire a competent teacher, so it is not evidence that it does not stop incompetent ones being fired. However, I know of no case where the AUE has stoped an incompetent teacher being fired. The AEU’s role is to ensure proper processes are followed. If principals cant be bothered going through proper processes, they have only themselves to blame.

I have looked for official figures on teacher dismissals but cannot find any. I know they occur because they are reported now and again in the press.

Most Victorian teachers nowadays start on short-term contracts, so if they are not satisfactory, their contracts are simply not renewed. A non-renewal of a contract will not show up as a dismissal.

I expect that very few teachers would be dismissed because there are very few incompetent ones. You can’t just walk in off the street. You have to pass an accredited teacher training course and then you have to convince a school to employ you. I worked at the University of Melbourne for six years and I saw many outstanding student teachers, whom I would have grabbed in an instant had I been a principal.

I will return another day to deal with more of your points.
Posted by Chris C, Tuesday, 18 February 2014 4:46:43 PM
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Chris,

I beg to differ. While the report does emphasise that in order to achieve the benefits of school autonomy, accountability and collaboration need to facilitated, the recommendations from PISA clearly show that systems with a higher level of autonomy outperform those without.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 19 February 2014 12:50:35 PM
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Shadow Minister,

My point is about the nature of autonomy. Victorian schools had curriculum autonomy when I began teaching in 1974. They did not have staffing or budgetary autonomy, yet the critics of current education say standards have fallen since then while staffing and budgetary autonomy has increased. Surely, if staffing and budgetary automony were the answer, standards would have improved with the increase of such autonomy.

Those who claim that the union makes it impossible to fire incompetent teachers do not give any evidence. It seems to be one of those claims made and repeated and then believed because it is made and repeated so often. I don’t know of a single example of the union making it impossible to fire an incompetent teacher.

I know that the process is time-consuming, but so it should be, and I know at least one principal personally who has removed more than one teacher via the process and without any objection from the union. He took his job seriously. Other principals can do the same. They just have to follow the principals of natural justice.

My account of events was upheld by the Merit Protection Board, which ordered my reinstatement to the position of timetabler. All the documents, including the MPB’s order, were supplied to the parliamentary inquiry into workplace bullying. It chose not to put them on the website with the rest of my submission, so there is no way of showing them to you.

I am sure we will return to this topic on another occasion, perhaps when I am able to respond in a more timely fashion.
Posted by Chris C, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 11:21:26 AM
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Chris,

I am glad that you concede that greater autonomy is linked with better results.

I have heard of cases of teachers being fired for hitting kids, being drunk on duty, etc, but never have I heard of a teacher losing their job at a public school because the quality of their teaching was sub standard. My wife being a high school teacher could recount more than a few "senior" teachers whose teaching and ability to control the class was terrible, and who were paid more than more competent junior teachers.

If you can give me a single example of such a teacher losing their job for an inability to teach in a public school I will be astounded. I have looked and cannot find one.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 March 2014 1:00:32 PM
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