I absolutely agree that church hierarchies have a lot to answer for. One of the things that puzzles me about the child abuse crimes in the churches is that the enablers have never been charged. My understanding is that someone who conceals a crime or abets in the continuation of a crime is an accessory to that crime and can be charged. Until we see these people charged along with the actual perpetrators, justice will not have been done.

In relation to the preponderance of male child victims, I believe there was research done in recent years which revealed that many priests regarded sex with someone who was not a woman as not breaking their vow of celibacy

Good essay.
Meanwhile http://www.vaticancrimes.us

Please remember that sexual abuse is the pointy end of the story and by far the most serious. However, there are maybe one hundred times more victims of physical abuse - all those cowering children tormented at the hands of strap-happy or feather-duster-wielding nuns and brothers and who as adults have never forgotten or forgiven.

Estelle is right.
I well remember the nuns throwing heavy blackboard dusters at kids heads during class. If we annoyed them on hot days, then all the windows and doors were shut, and we were left in a locked classroom for hours to 'contemplate on our sins'.

Rulers wacking our hands/fingers and the backs of our legs/buttocks left large red welts.
My parents never said much because they suffered even worse punishments at Catholic boarding schools!

If this current Royal commission into child sexual abuse doesn't result in many Catholic clergy being jailed for abuse of kids, as well as their dreadful superiors who hid the facts, then it was a failure.

The same things happened in state schools which I attended. We were assaulted left, right and centre. Well do I remember, as a seven year old, getting the flogging of my life for not having done my homework. Result: large, red welts on my legs. When my father complained to the headmaster I got another flogging by the same teacher.

yep and the self righteous no smacking brigade with many exagarated stories have created a society filled with violence including rape, murder, incest and drug abuse. Oh if we were not like those evil ones who disciplined and turned most into reasonably peaceful human beings. Such balance.

Runner,

Not talking about smacking but about serious assault. Do you understand the difference?

Dear runner,

Thanks to the good Catholic education of bashing
goodness into children - many of the inmates of
Pentridge were from the Christian Brothers schools
(as told by the then Chaplain of Pentrdige).

Francis

'Not talking about smacking but about serious assault. Do you understand the difference? '

very much so Francis but many don't.

Foxy

'Thanks to the good Catholic education of bashing
goodness into children - many of the inmates of
Pentridge were from the Christian Brothers schools
(as told by the then Chaplain of Pentrdige). '

and what of the many murderers, child molestors, rapist today Foxy?

funny enough I am not one to defend the Catholic church although having been right through the school system in the 70's I rarely if at all viewed this 'bashing goodness into children'. What was the BBC's excuse for ignoring the likes of Saville and others for decades?

Foxy,
I am not buying into this discussion but I was raised in a religious institution, not Catholic, from a very early age, in the good old days, the 40s and 50s.
It was a harsh environment but what I remember most is the moral, ethical and caring attitudes of my fellow inmates.
A group of children under duress show far more moral fibre and strength of character than any group of adults could ever hope to achieve. Children learn all the bad stuff from adults without a doubt.
I attended a reunion many years later and virtually all had become normal well adjusted citizens.
Just my experience.
SD

Dear runner,

What about all the deviants that exist in the world?
Well, we're talking about the Catholic clergy here
old chap. Do try to keep up. My husband had a
Christian Brothers education and speaks from experience.
And I still have nightmares of a certain nun that took
it upon herself to lash out with a cane.

Ethical concepts such as responsibility, respect, loyalty,
honesty, charity and mercy cannot be taught directly.
They can only be learned in concrete life situations from
people one respects. One grows into virtue; one cannot
be forece by punishment. Misbehaviour and punishment are
not opposites that cancel each other; on the contrary, they
breed and reinforce each other. Punishment does not deter
misconduct. It merely makes the offender more cautious in
commiting their crime, more adroit in concealing their
traces, more skilled in escaping detection.
When a child is punished he/she resolves to be more careful,
not more honest and responsible.

A true disciplinarian can move children from terror to trust.

Foxy,
No offense but from my experience that sounds a bit theoretical.
SD

' Punishment does not deter
misconduct. '

highly debatable Foxy. Singapore shouts a different outcome. Obviously discipline without love is useless although love without discipline does not exist.

Runner,

What is the difference between smacking and serious assault?

Do you belong to the "bash goodness into them" mob or "bash evil out of them"?

As well as the child victims of the churches there are countless child victims of domestic violence and sexual assault. They have no voice or avenue for compensation. Many of them probably come from households who believe in 'discipline with love'.

Francis

'Do you belong to the "bash goodness into them" mob or "bash evil out of them"? '

actually I belonged (kids now all prospering greatly) to teaching my kids to respect their parents, teachers and authority. Your simplistic options show you understand little about human nature.

Well if you were a competent parent runner you would have been able to achieve all that without resorting to assault. I hope that was the case.

A fine article, raising many possibilities.

Given current revelations, I feel it must be very difficult for many Catholics to maintain their faith - doing so primarily perhaps because of their loyalty to the Christian message (of love, compassion, charity ..), and their belief in Jesus, and in spite of the evident (and obvious) failings of Mother Church; their loyalty also being a reflection of the strongly held conviction that the great majority of Catholic priests are truly virtuous and honourable men.

However, doubt prevails regarding aspects of Church structure and doctrine:
.The incompatibility of recruiting gay priests, while berating the sin of homosexuality; (does the Church perhaps, erroneously, think it can 'cleanse' or overcome such a 'predilection' by the taking of vows)?
.The incompatibility of 'celibacy' with an expectation of priests having a sound understanding of 'marriage' or married life - or of a sound understanding of 'normal' sexuality, or of the very complicated nature of the human psyche, human nature, and the variability of human sexual proclivity.
.The stupidity of railing against contraception when it is so widely accepted and practiced throughout the developed world.

I believe the future of the Church lies in only having married heterosexual priests (and who practice responsible contraception), and in accepting homosexuality as a 'normally occurring' feature of the human animal - though disqualifying any exponents from the priesthood.

Posted by Candide, Tuesday, 17 December 2013 7:01:01 AM:
>> I believe there was research done in recent years which revealed that many priests regarded sex with someone who was not a woman as not breaking their vow of celibacy.<<

This is a real possibility, as indicated by current revelations, and represents a potential major and fundamental hypocrisy.

Runner,

As the father of seven , one deceased, I think I know more about human nature than you would like to believe. I do know, however, that "bashing" people is dysfunctional and is far from being the only way to instill respect into children.

I can guarantee that if I started a firm of butchers, or solicitors, or hairdressers, or any other kind of occupational group, with one of the job requirements being that all employees should be male, and another that they should profess lifelong celibacy, I would have a tiny number of applicants containing a very high ratio of peculiar people, and subsequently very little choice about the quality of my recruits. By limiting its own choices in this bizarre way the church has virtually guaranteed that a high proportion of its priests will be self-deluded, mentally abnormal, and/or practised liars. To that extent at least it is culpable for its employees' actions.

Well said Jon J.
SD

Foxy,
>> Punishment does not deter misconduct. <<
Put thus - well, I agree, taken out of context - this is questionable. The problem is not punishment as such (as some educators think today, or thought until recently) but its harshness, even cruelty. Appalling was not that fact that stealing a handkerchief was punishable in Britain but the absurd harshness (deportation) of the punishment certainly was.

Discipline, like surgery, requires precision -
no random cuts, no rambling comments. Above all,
a parent demonstrates self-discipline and good
manners-no tantrums, no insults, no blistering
language. The parent never abdicates their moral
authority. A parent does not enter mud-throwing
contests with children. A parent's discipline is
never bizarre and their correction is never sadistic.
Parents who resort to verbal vilification and
physical force teach violence. Hence the blind
belief in punishment is passed from generation to
generation is dramatically illustrated in Willard
Motley's book, "Knock on Any Door." Upon hearing
that his son Nick was sentenced to death for
murder, his father said, "I can't understand it...
I always whipped him when he did wrong."
Nick himself, in his death cell, has not better
advice for the upbringing of his newborn nephew than,
"Don't let what happened to me happen to him.
Beat the hell out of him. See that he does right."

Foxy,
You have obviously read a bit on the subject. I cannot say I have but I have written a bit based on my own observations.
You cannot select your parents or the circumstances you are raised in but it is essential you learn how to make the most of the hand you were dealt.
Those guilty of child abuse in any form should be punished without doubt but living your life looking back at things that are long gone serves little purpose.
SD

Dear SD,

You have a good heart!

Wishing All That Is Beautiful in Life!

Shaggy Dog, I am sure that sexual abuse victims would like nothing more than being able to forget their past.

However, in the case of those abused by Catholic clergy anyway, the injustice of most of the perpetrators never having been brought to justice, and the continuing cover-ups by that church hierarchy even to today, must surely not allow them to forget...

Suse,
You do not forget the past, that's impossible, but you should not live in it.
That is destructive, to yourself.
SD

Dear Suse,

We haven't yet even begun to calculate the damage these
crimes have done to people's trust and to the reputation
of the church. Young people - and their elders - are
rightly sceptical about everything the church says about
sexuality. This has a flow-on effect with the church's
entire message. Trust is going to have to be built from
the bottom up by bishops and priests before their
pronouncements on morality will be taken seriously again.

Also the kind of uncompromising, unfriendly and
unattractive "boots and all," bully-boy style of
Catholicism that's often reflected by some leading church
people probably does even more harm. Sadly, so many
that claim to represent Catholicism are aggressive,
reactionary Catholics. Some of them are astonishingly rude
and arrogant, and much of their discussion is carried out
in the most extraordinary vicious and confronting terms.
I met one at St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney - who was a
shocker - and most unpleasant man.
Name-calling, shrill denunciation,
sneering are the principal modes of expressing
disagreement on any issue. These people present the most
unappealing possible picture of what it is to be a
Catholic, or to live as a Catholic. And this sort of image
makes Catholicism unattractive and certainly not worthy
of intelligent investigation. People remember these
attitdues for years.

We're all attracted by good people and most of us are
much more likely to become motivated by hope and interest
in God through good experiences than through intellectual
conviction. Certainly, for a small minority, intellectual
conviction might come first, but for most it comes later.
Attitude makes all the difference.

Hi Foxy, yes I know what you mean.
As often I carry on about the Catholic Church , I also remember a wonderful Nun I knew at school.

She was such a cheerful, gentle soul who never hurt a fly, and she was always hugging everyone!
She played guitar and sang like an angel.
I took up guitar playing because of her.
I am sure that if there were such things as saints, she would be one of them.

Foxy/Suse,
I cannot comment on the Catholic institutions, I did spend some time in one but I was so young my recollections are very fragmented.
The rest of my childhood was spent in an institution of another denomination but it, like most institutions of the time had it's faults.
As you are possibly aware and would expect those of us who lived in these various institutions have compared experiences over the years. We are possibly far more honest and open when talking to each other than we are to those who do not have the shared experience. This is a normal human reaction.
As I say there is no excuse for the perpetrators of abuse and they should be punished but most individuals who suffered abuse I have found over the years just got on with life and do not see themselves as victims. It was just the hand they were dealt.
For myself I was out in the world on my own at fifteen, educated myself to a tertiary level, have held senior management positions.
Life is there for the living, it is a one act play with no rehearsal, live in the past and you will miss the performance.
Take it easy.
SD

Very wise, SD. Thank you, and all the best.

Thanks also to Foxy and Suse for your thoughtful insights, and, have a good one.

May the season bring joy, and comfort to all in need - and we all need something, even a hug, (or a lot more), and maybe some quenching rain.

Fingers crossed for 2014, and beyond.

Dear Shaggy,

I agree with you that we shouldn't live in the past.
However, we can learn from it. Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
tells us in the Preface to his book, "The Gulag Archipelago,"
about an old Russian proverb that says,

"No, don't! Don't dig up the past!
Dwell on the past and you'll lose
an eye."

But the proverb goes on to say,

"Forget the past and you'll lose both eyes."

Decades go by, and the scars and sores of the past are
for many healing over for good. However, unless we learn
from the mistakes of the past, the tragedies, it is
unlikely that we will have a happier future to contemplate.
The moral choice is ours to make.

To you, Saltpetre, Suse, and everyone of goodwill,
May you have the Spirit of Christmas which is Peace.
The Gladness of Christmas which is Hope. And, the Heart
of Christmas which is Love.
And may your spirit continue smiling, and your sould
dance to good music in the New Year.