The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Can Australia's car manufacturing industry be viable? > Comments

Can Australia's car manufacturing industry be viable? : Comments

By John Cadogan, published 10/12/2013

Three months after the announcement of the decision to withdraw from manufacturing in Australia, Ford threw a two-hour party at Fox Studios in Sydney at a cost of $4 million.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All
The article ignores some pertinent facts.

If the car manufacturing business ceases what will happen to steel flat products? What will Australia be capable of producing if Bluescope ceases production.

Chifley promoted the introduction of the automotive, white goods, trucks and buses, and rolling stock industries and, as a consequence, BHP built a steel plate and strip mill at Port Kembla.

If coal and iron ore prices drop, or eventually the raw materials are exhausted, Australia will have no industrial production capacity and probably no construction steel and we won't be able to afford to import our needs.

We need clear industrial production aims.
Posted by Foyle, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 8:31:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
No is the short answer to a long article on whether Australia's car industry can be viable. Thousand of words, and more words, will not make it so.

The technocrat elite, who advise politicians too dumb to make decisions that are not in the best interests of Australian tax payers, keep on making he same mistakes. Putting more money into industry that pay their workers too much every time they ask for it - just to produce cars nobody wants - is too stupid for words, especially when it has not worked in the past.

The sooner Holden and Toyota leave Australia the better.No more need to protect cars nobody wants with tariffs and taxpayer funds, the cheaper cars will be.
Posted by NeverTrustPoliticians, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 8:39:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A simple alternative to outright tariffs would be to set the highest standards in the world, offer subsidies to Aussie manufacturers to meet those standards, and tax any co. which doesn't.
A “5 star” rating system could reward models with lower rego and insurance fees, which:
1 don't use fossil fuels -or at least use natural gas, at a lower rating
2 have the highest crash survival rating
3 best braking systems
4 cannot exceed the maximum speed limit.
Drivers under the age of 25 could be restricted to owning 5 star cars.
OTOH, what's really so wrong with tariffs? To suggest that Australians should not have to work for less than the minimum wage, but it's OK to buy products from countries which don't have minimum wage standards is hypocritical and discriminatory (probably not relevant to the whole car industry...)
Also a pollution / transport tax should not be unreasonable in this day and age, when the 16 largest cargo ships in the world produce more pollution than all the cars in the world.
Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 8:48:41 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The answer is not money, it is providing cars that people want. The technology used by Holden (General Motors USA) is outdated. It is nice to have car that parks itself and has TV cameras on the back but what about an environmentally savvy car? Oil is running out and as it does, it gets more expensive. What is needed is a lighter car that consumes less fuel. A car designed to run on biofuels, solar or hydrogen or combinations of same. Hemp fibre (that product governments think will cause the end of the world as we know it) as a composite, is stronger than steel and a fraction of the weight. Cars will actually run on hemp seed oil, thus removing the need to drill for oil. There will be objectors saying it is not economically viable but they have to say that because they are paid to. We have more than enough land in our red centre to grow billions of tons of the stuff and give work in regional areas to thousands. We have more sunshine than almost any other country on Earth and yet our solar industry is way behind the rest of the world. Why? Because we have weak-minded governments who don't want to change the status quo! The newly-elected Abbott Government is trying to remove the carbon tax, which funds initiatives that are creating sustainable new jobs. This is the very infrastructure needed to boost a new, sustainable car industry. Let Holden go home to the US and fund an Australian, green car industry and get a lead on the rest of the world.
Posted by David Leigh, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 9:10:25 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
No! Not in its current form. We need to make something the rest of the world will want to buy!
Namely, NG powered electric vehicles!
We could adapt Aussie innovation, and replace banks of very expensive lithium batteries, with much lighter ceramic fuel cells and a few capacitators.

Making range of the electric vehicle comparative with that of LPG variants. And able to be refueled just as quickly!
All that would be required would be NG refilling stations. And where a NG pipeline is currently not viable, rail and road tankers, could transport CNG!
A cubic metre of non compressed gas, has a calorific energy value, equal to a litre of standard grade petrol! And various gas suppliers, are on the public record saying the could supply Automotive gas for just 40 cents a litre!. Further, given energy coefficients as high as 85%, this combination would not only be clean and green, but the most economical on the planet!

Moreover, given the conversion from gas to electricity inside an ceramic fuel cell, is a chemical reaction rather than combustion, the exhaust product of these vehicles, would be mostly water vapor.
After that, and if the current car manufacturers, won't come to the party?
We should wave them all goodbye, and plow our car manufacturing subsidy money into an employee co-op that will!
And we need to get something back for the money already plowed in; namely, the robotics!

In a trade deal with china, we could make the chassis, with all the mechanical components on it, and allow the Chinese to bolt on their bodies, seats etc. It'd be a massive market, and around 40-50% of that market, would be a whole lot better than the 100% of nothing, one way vehicle trade that exists currently!

Given China's smog problems, we couldn't build these vehicles fast enough!
And as we up production capacities, there remains huge Indian, American And European markets!?

With those economies of scale inherent in a revamped industry, large parts of the allied car parts industries, would not just survive, but massively prosper!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 10:28:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Correction, and apologies. 40 cents a litre, should read 40 cents a cubic metre.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 10:31:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Foyle you do realise don't that Bluescope isn't the only steel producer in Australia?
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 12:33:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David Leigh raises some valid points. Rather than protecting an inferior product, investment in our car industry should focus on developing a world-class product.

Not that there's anything wrong with the humble Commodore, per se. It's just that Holden charge premium prices for non-premium vehicles. I think the likes of the Commodore are also tainted by association with shiny, plastic imports like the Cruze. I know all manufacturers have their black sheep, but an industry struggling to survive cannot afford to let those black sheep tarnish the name of a company as a whole.

Focus on engineering for quality, safety, endurance, economy and environmental friendliness, rather than focusing on engineering for gizmos and gadgets. I would imagine that the labour costs are the same (or similar) if a car is well-engineered, well-designed and in line with what Australians want. We can either continue producing middle-of-the-road cars and cut prices, or we can make our cars worth what we pay for them. Then, perhaps, people will consider buying Commodores (or whatever the future version may be) rather than A6s, Passats, etc.
Posted by Otokonoko, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 2:01:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oh god, who let the fairies out again.

The 2 most popular cars in Oz are the Toyota Hilux, & the Mazda 3. Where do all these people get the idea that we should build electric cars, or LPG cars or fuel cell cars that no one anywhere wants.

Both gas & electric are readily available here & don't sell.

The problem is not that no one wanted Falcons or Commodes, but that they have become too expensive for what they are. Blame our cost structures for that. That & the large shift not to funny cars, or even cheaper, but to large 4WDs, where many women feel safer, & doubles as a useful tow/fun vehicle on weekends.

With our now ridicules labor costs expect the same discussion regarding the mining industry in about 10 years time, as more than a few start to run down.

Then of course it will be more serious. The problem will be much larger, & we won't have another source of income to subsidise the dying one.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 4:17:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Cobber the hound
Yes, I realise there are two, one producing flat product the other what are known as long products (girders, rails, reinforcing rounds and flat bars).
The product ranges do not overlap.
I know because for five years I was in charge of the steel department making the flat products, and visited and studied steel plants in the USA, Japan, Russia, the UK and France for starters.
Posted by Foyle, Tuesday, 10 December 2013 7:16:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hasbeen, the only reason we don't make a Toyota hilux or a Mazda 3 here, is because we have totally unimaginative could-have-beens like you, with classical medieval bricks and mortar mindsets, in charge of most manufacture.
You say we have gas cars? Yes LPG; and we have electric cars. Yes sure. But electric variants, where much more than half the component costs, are inherent in the half ton or so of very expensive lithium batteries.
Nowhere and contrary to your gormless assertions, is there a gas powered electric car; where the heavy and extremely expensive battery bank is replaced by a light weight ceramic fuel cell, which as you just might know, produces mostly water vapor, as the exhaust product. Moreover, these variants, can be plugged in to power the house overnight!
As usual, you're just so good at bagging other poeples ideas, probably because you don't have anything worthy of consideration of your own?
A highlux and a Mazda 3, really? Is that the very best you can do?
People, professional baggers and bad-mouthers, just like you, I believe, are responsible for our very best and most lucrative ideas being off-shored, along with the billions they could have earned for us!
Nor are there any vehicles plying our highways powered by a ceramic fuel cells as you seem to, in your abysmal ignorance, assert?
The only prototypes have been based on more expensive than gold, platinum, not polymers, as in the Aussie innovation.
We make great cars, and our commodores and fords feature regularly in front of many more expensive imported versions, in V8 super cars!
All we need is very low cost energy, and a tax system that puts real downward pressure on the AUD; and a gag for people, just like you, all to ready it seems, to badmouth, and critique stuff, they know, bugger all about!?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 11:07:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rhrosty, if you know it all, & want to "change the world", for god sake do it, rather than talk about. You could join the long line of bankrupt dreamers & conmen who have been there before. Try Obama, he's been throwing mountains of taxpayer money at anything green, he might help you get started.

Yes you can move your manufacturing effort, but you have to be smart/lucky enough to pick the trend.

15 years ago Mazda was almost broke. The bean counters had them building cut priced also-ran cars, that didn't sell. Then the engineers took over & built good cars. Nothing "out there" as you would have, but stylish reliable on the road cars, that do the job economically. Unlike GM Holden, Nissan, Honda & a couple of other majors who have spent tens of millions trying to make alternative cars that work, Mazda built a better ute.

Even with massive subsidies, none of them work. There are many better ways of using hydrocarbons to power transport, but the internal combustion, with 130 years of development & refinement is going to take a lot of beating. I doubt it will be replaced by anything short of on board nuclear generation of electricity or perhaps steam.

Trying to develop a fuel cell damn near sent Honda broke. They are only now back to a viable car maker.

Car makers were forced into Hybrid & electric cars, kicking & screaming, by the ratbag politics of a green California. They want to be damn careful that they don't follow that crazy state into bankruptc
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 1:28:50 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Our car industry was very unlucky. They all chose to develop a new car platform at just the wrong time. When they did the development Oz wanted a largish 6 cylinder car, & nothing else would do.

Over the many years & tens or hundreds of millions of dollars they spent on these new cars, the market started to change. The change was only fully established about the time the companies were starting to market their new cars.

Make no mistake, the companies were developing the right cars when they started, but were overtaken by fashion.

Mitsubishi actually developed a very good car, but their past failures with Magna reliability killed them before the new car could help.

Holden & Toyota had also been caught with a very good last era car, & had to recoup too much development cost with a dinosaur, before they could try again.

Both also have overseas parent companies who may not want a small car built in Oz.

Even there Holden have tried with the Cruise, but with our production costs they still lose money even when selling it at $5000 more than equivalent imports.

Mitsubishi had to give up, Ford did not spend the full cost of developing a new model, & are going before they lose much more money, & even the mighty Toyota seem to have lost the plot. The once mighty, unkillable Hilux is trading on a fading reputation, & no one has ever wanted their front drive Oz built sixes anyway. They are unlikely to be able to support a components industry, so will follow Holden.

Can Oz have a VIABLE car industry, certainly not with our present cost structures it can't. A perhaps more important question is can South Oz survive, without all those inflated pay packages flowing into the place.

Pity the Adelaide weather is not nicer, all the upcoming very cheap housing would make it a good retirement town, apart from the lousy weather.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 1:32:41 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
GMH has announced that they are closing manufacturing in Australia in Q4 2017.

Rhosty, does that price of NG at 40 cents a cubic metre include compression to a volume of 1 litre ?

Further to previous comments I have not heard that the life of fuel cells has been increased.

David Leigh;
The various biofuels are proving to be not viable and companies making
them have been going broke in the US. Brazil, using sugar cane seems
to be an exception although I not know is what the pump price.
The major problem is the poor ERoEI.

Maybe now is a good time to redefine how we use cars.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 11 December 2013 3:58:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
So here is a different slant on the problem of cars and how we use them.

http://crudeoilpeak.info/world-car-production-grows-3-times-faster-than-global-oil-supplies

So in the long run it must mean that will will have to use drastically
different cars than those that follow the US/AUS favourite type.
Four Wheels Drives look like being dinosaurs and as for V8 racing then
how long can dinosaur racing continue.

I was at the local primary school the other day at 3pm and I was
amazed at the number of four wheel drives and transition models that
were there picking up the kids.
I had previously heard of this but had not realised the magnitude.
It must have been close to 50%.

No matter which way you twist the story there will be a major change
in the design of the cars we drive.
Could this be one of the reasons for Ford & GM pulling the plug ?
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 12 December 2013 11:42:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
bazz, ethanol is competitive with petrol when the price of petrol is 60c/l
Posted by SLASHER1, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 1:13:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Slasher1, ethanol provides about 60% of the energy that petrol provides.
so that means ethanol has to be 60% of the price of petrol to break
even so has to be about $1-00 a litre. A bit different to your figure.

The interesting comments on here however do not take into account a
trend that is now showing up.
Young people are not buying cars in the numbers previously bought.
Also the yearly mileage per car is also falling.
Together with Generals Motors also observing this trend in both Europe
and the US, and other probably more significant factors, has driven
their new policy of withdrawing back to the USA.

Nothing done by Australian governments can change GM's new policy,
they have much bigger fish to fry.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 18 December 2013 4:09:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy