Hi Marika

All very true on the trade-offs between humanitarianism and politicised security in Israel and also in Australia.

No doubt the Australian military is very uneasy about the Abbott Government's decision to thrust our military into an extremely politicised, high profile, humanitarian, issue. Its a lose-lose order to the Australian military.

While Minister Morrison has not yet fixed this unbalanced use of the military at least he's partly redressed the damage to the military at the Friday briefings. This week's Senate Estimates was bad enough concerning the misuse of the military's authority and function.

You'd be aware that a certain right-wing (self-appointed?) representative of the Jewish-Australian community constantly writes articles that serve to damage Australian moderate opinion about Israel.

Your article is therefore a welcome change.

Regards

Pete

History lesson, Israel has been in many hands and ruled by many nations. The Ottoman, Turkish Empire, sold the land known as Israel to the 'Jews' between 1918-1922, the British 'forced' their rule in the region and became very anti-Israel. The outnumbered Israeli's defeated 6 Arab nations and the British imperialists, not to 'steal land', rather, simply to survive.In doing so, 'survive' their land acquirement increased. (1948). The surrounding Arab states have never accepted the Israeli state. Many governments have also refused to recognise the right of Israel and it's inhabitants to 'live in peace' and there is the constant threat of destruction, with most, unfortunately, taking the side of the 'so called Palestinians". Australia was settled the same way, by use of force and death. Nothing has changed. Now we face a new threat of barbaric intentions with a government not willing to acknowledge this threat. As for informing the media, they have become totally 'unfriendly' toward this country with corrupt reporting and the desire to destroy our countries security. How can a government give information to the public which becomes distorted with lies and heresies which could very well start a war for which not one will take any responsibility. The media has become it's own worst enemy. Security affects every Australian citizen and sadly, the media cannot be trusted to keep our best interests concealed.

Dear Marika.

Australians have a Human Right to protect our borders, and to determine who comes here and the manner in which they arrive. If you are so concerned about Human Rights, why don't you show solidarity with the Human Rights of the Australian people (into who's country you have been admitted) instead of worrying about the human rights of foreigners?

We Australians will never accept you as one of our own unless display your loyalty to us. And if you constantly support measures hostile to our interests you will be considered an enemy alien to whom the term 'Australian" is simply a geographical address.

Umm LEGO

Sounds like you're stuck in a Dunera Boys time warp of prejudice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunera_boys

So was John Howard your idol quotation wise?

I know it's something of a cliche now for illegal immigration advocates to diagnose the public dissatisfaction with open borders as a type of "fear". This then allows the advocate to position themselves as a wiser and cooler head who has the selfless and saintly task of leading the lesser folk to enlightenment.

But fear is not the emotion I feel, nor do not see it widely reflected in the community. The emotion I see is disgust.

Disgust, that we are not in a position to determine our immigration policy.

Disgust, at the shonkiness of many who are being passed as "genuine".

Disgust, at the way any attempt to assert our sovereignty is immediately attacked as racist.

Forget Israel, perhaps we should look to the majority Arab nations in the region: how is it that while huge numbers of "asylum seekers"
transit their territories --and most of the said states are signatory to the refugee convention--very few want to claim asylum in those
countries (even fellow Muslims are reticent!) --WHAT IS THEIR SECRET?

Interesting question, SPQR. As I understand it, a "Palestinian" who wants to leave Gaza and who goes to another Arab country will not be given citizenship. He will not be allowed to open a business or to access any sort of social security.

It is much better to go to Australia where he will be granted all of these things, and he can march through Hyde Park denouncing the western world with his Arab brothers and holding up a sign saying "Behead all who insult Islam."

To Plantagenet. If the Euros had a low opinion of the Jews, could it be because the behaviour of the Jews had something to do with it? Jews were very prominent in the Communist movement which was one reason why Hitler hated them. Jewish business leaders are renowned for discriminating in favour of Jews. Most of the Jews in Eastern Europe were of the fundamentalist Orthodox type who even the secular Jews despised. Fundamentalist Orthodox Jews are even a problem in Israel because of their unacceptable behaviour. Secular Israelis have to plan car trips to avoid Orthodox areas on Sabbath days because the Orthodox Jews stand on street corners and throw rocks at the passing cars. Would we want people like that to come to Australia and stand on our street corners? It is bad enough now with ambulances not entering Cabramatta without a police escort.

Secular and Orthodox Jews are racist towards each other. When one side calls the other a "Frankum" and the other side calls the other a 'Goyem".that sure looks like racism to me. You want us to love the Jews when they don't even like each other.

Lego

What's your point?

Are you just finding excuses for your traditional anti-Semitism Lego?

Are you saying Christians of different denominations don't fight it out and discriminate against each other historically, recently and currently?

Have you heard of the slaughters between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians on a mass scale as recently as the 1990s in Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia?

Have you heard of the continuing hatreds, riots and some bombings that continue between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

No wonder Israel now has the Bomb to sort out anti-Semites.

Never again boyo.

Pete

To Plantagenet.

You mentioned "the Dunera Boys" to support your premise that Australia should accept anybody who comes to our country asking directions to the local dole office. My premise is, that that our lack of empathy for these people can be explained by the unacceptable behaviour of some of those those groups of people who have arrived here unannounced.

Australia has imported large numbers of Vietnamese "refugees' with the result that the Vietnamese suburb of Cabramatta is the heroin capitol of Australia. To fight the phenomenon of Vietnamese criminals living in Australia and making interstate drug courier runs in motor cars, the state of NSW has curtailed one of our most sacred freedoms. This is, the right of the police to not simply stop and search a victim for any evidence of a crime. NSW police can now stop and search any person's car without probable cause.

Australia has imported large numbers of "refugees" from Lebanon who have created appalling social problems and who have created a serious crime wave in Sydney. the Middle Eastern Task Force is now the NSW's largest detective department, all to police 2.5% of the population.

Australians do have a sovereign right to refuse entry to any group of people we have reason to believe will cause social disruption to our community. And if those people are being persecuted where they originally come from, perhaps they could look at their own group behaviour before they demand that we accommodate them and give them succour.

No group is immune to fair criticism. Be they Jews, bikies or Muslims.

Lego

Your clear expression of anti-Semitism made at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15737#272455 appears to, in part, excuse Hitler's attitude to Jews. The most offensive portion is:

"If the Euros had a low opinion of the Jews, could it be because the behaviour of the Jews had something to do with it? Jews were very prominent in the Communist movement which was one reason why Hitler hated them."

Excusing your comment as some sort of defence of Australian immigration policy is just covering up your clear anti-Semitic hatreds.

I didn't realize how extreme your views have become.

A state whose security interests require to be "balanced" against the interests of the people is up to no good.

The rights of the individual citizen have been explored and codified as justice, state transparency, human rights, in the course of the Enlightenment.

Enemies of the people foster the illusion that these are "soft" objectives, idealistic indulgences, to be required to give way to "realpolitik". Such enemies are constantly on the move and it is our duty to take sides as Australians did in the in the last shooting war in which Australia's objectives were honourable. German and Jap national security, being directed against the rights of the people of the world, justly got short shrift when the Allied forces went through them like a packet of salts. It's not security that outfits like ASIO protect, it's pecking order.

The security of the settler state of Israel is counter to the security interests of the people of the world as was South African national security until after 1989. Degrading justice is degrading the human species.

Yeah Plantagenet, I get the same thing when I criticise Muslims and get accused of Islamophobia.

So, how do you feel about Nazis and Ku Klux Klansmen? Do you presume that most of them are really nice guys and it is just the "extremists" who give them a bad name? Or do you judge people by their group associations, group behaviour, and group ideology, just like everyone else does?

There are many Australians who do not want Muslims "refugees" coming to Australia because they are crime prone, welfare prone, a terrorism problem, and they have cultural values like female genital mutilation, honour killings, a general tendency to use violence as a first resort to solving personnel problems, and religious opinions conducive to approving the rape of females who do not conform to Islamic practices

There were obviously Australians who felt the same way about Jewish refugees in 1939. There are valid reasons why Hasidic Jews would not be welcome in Australia. They are a big enough problem in Israel without importing their peculiar behaviour here. One Hasidic Jewish family in Sydney who has been convicted of very serious tax evasion could not be jailed because of their bizarre dietary requirements. Hasidic Jews will not eat food prepared by people not of their faith. This is extremely insulting to non Hasidic Jews and is one very good reason for anti Semitism.

So too, is their insistence that Jews only marry Jews and their habit of parents singing the Karbala (song of the dead) when any of their children marry outside of the faith.

The point I was making, was that anti Semitism is not with out valid foundation, any more than anti Muslim feelings are not without valid foundation. Any social group of people who are held in contempt by a majority, be they Nazis, Jews, Muslims, bikies, street gangs, or Ku Klux Klansmen, should look again at their behaviour before complaining about the fact that others do not like them.

Papists for a long time couldn't marry "out" unless the partner agreed to raise the children in the Roman church. Just a quirk like the fads of Hasidic Jews. There was a time when my wife could have been insulted (if she was the sort who indulged in offence-taking) when a new member of staff, a Hasidic Jew, was introduced around and wouldn't shake her hand (she being the only woman on the team). Later she asked him over coffee if Hasidim thought women were unclean, and he explained gravely that their religion wouldn't allow them to arouse sexual passion in a woman unless they could satisfy it immediately. To this day she doesn't know if he was "having lend of her". My take on it is that mathematicians are sometimes a bit odd.

The Islamic cult is not a threat to the state except in Moslems who take it really seriously, but it _IS_ at its Koranic core a threat to human liberty, and a state would not be importing a bridgehead for Islam unless it wanted a pretext to develop a police state as in Egypt and Britain and in "security" powers which have been adopted, and inevitably abused, in Australia. But then I'm afraid I'm both Islamophobic AND Naziphopic, recognising just how fragile the gains of the Enlightenment are.

Lego and EJ

You're entitled to your beliefs in our (Australia's) tolerant society.

Cheers

Planta