Lord, said David, since you do not need us,
why did you create these two worlds?

Reality replied: O prisoner of time,
I was a secret treasure of kindness and generosity,
and I wished this treasure to be known,
so I created a mirror: its shining face, the heart;
its darkened back, the world;
The back would please you if you've never seen the face.

Has anyone ever produced a mirror out of mud and straw?
Yet clean away the mud and straw,
and a mirror might be revealed.

Until the juice ferments a while in the cask,
it isn't wine. If you wish your heart to be bright,
you must do a little work.

My King addressed the soul of my flesh:
You return just as you left.
Where are the traces of my gifts?

We know that alchemy transforms copper into gold.
This Sun doesn't want a crown or robe from God's grace.
He is a hat to a hundred bald men,
a covering for ten who were naked.

Jesus sat humbly on the back of an ass, my child!
How could a zephyr ride an ass?
Spirit, find your way, in seeking lowness like a stream.
Reason, tread the path of selflessness into eternity.

Remember God so much that you are forgotten.
Let the caller and the called disappear;
be lost in the Call.

{Mewlana Jalaluddin Rumi "Be Lost In The Call"}

....How we experience life and death ...with humility or arrogance, gratitude or greed, patience or irritability...Is this not an expression of free-will? Or is this also predetermined?

salaams

grateful

....or is how we experience life and death a sequence of purely random mutations passed on too subsequent generations?

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Dear grateful,

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Thank you for introducing me to the 13th-century Persian poet, jurist, theologian, and Sufi mystic, Mewlana Jalaluddin Rumi.

Like many great men prior to the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th century, it never seems to have occurred to him to extract himself from the ambient belief in the supernatural and deity.

Even such exceptional scientific minds as Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) and Albert Einstein (1879-1955) were deeply mired in such metaphysical beliefs.

In the case of da Vinci it is understandable in that his life's work and sustenance were totally dependent on powerful religious and political benefactors.

It is more astonishing in the case of Einstein who was post-Enlightenment. But his was a far more specialised mind. Perhaps he provided the explanation of this apparent contradiction when he noted:

"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits".

Rumi's observation ...

"Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!"

... reminds me of a similar observation of Helen Keller (1880-1968), but she was deafblind:

"What I am looking for is not out there, it is in me".

Rumi also said:

"When we are dead, seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men"

I am tempted to update those words of wisdom as follows:

"When we are dead, seek not our tomb in the earth, nor in some hypothetical heaven or hell, but find it in the hearts of men and women".

Rumi is a monumental figure in the Persian and Islamic world. However, I respectfully beg to differ with him when he declares:

" Man not conscious of God is akin to an animal and true consciousness makes him divine".

A person of such intelligence and wisdom, had he lived today, may, perhaps, have declared:

"Man not conscious of God was originally akin to all other animals and later evolved to true consciousness of reality that, indeed, there is no God".

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Dear grateful,

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You wrote:

"....How we experience life and death ...with humility or arrogance, gratitude or greed, patience or irritability...Is this not an expression of free-will? Or is this also predetermined?
....or is how we experience life and death a sequence of purely random mutations passed on too subsequent generations?"

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Your guess is as good as mine, grateful. Mine is that our attitude to life and death is fashioned by a cocktail of nature, nurture, opportunity and free-will.

As I indicated above, apart from the odd exception, the ideas and beliefs of the most brilliant minds - as well as those of some of the less brilliant - evolve with each new generation.

I doubt that anyone will believe in God by the end of the millennium - give or take a century or two. Time is running out on that, as evidence (or should I say, the lack of it) continues to build up.

Time will eventually hit that one on the head.

We'll have to think of something else to comfort the poor and needy and those in distress, also to provide a satisfactory outlet for our surplus love and affection, propensity for self sacrifice, obedience, devotion, and the need for somebody to take charge of our lives.

Drugs, alcohol and religion are being stretched to their limits and, as time goes by, I doubt that they will suffice.

Our religious inheritance will be a mixed bag of good and bad.

On the good side are to be found the foundations of most of our laws, an immense treasure of sacred music from Bach to Wagner, architectural marvels in the form of magnificent, awe-inspiring cathedrals embellished with the best craftsmanship mankind is capable of producing, art in all its forms (painting, sculpture etc.), song and dance, as well as important literary works. Religion also provides a number of appreciable social services, particularly in the domains of health and education , sometimes more effectively and efficiently than the State.

On the bad side, it will all be history so let us simply forgive and forget.

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Banjo, you say

"As I indicated above, apart from the odd exception, the ideas and beliefs of the most brilliant minds - as well as those of some of the less brilliant - evolve with each new generation.

I doubt that anyone will believe in God by the end of the millennium - give or take a century or two. Time is running out on that, as evidence (or should I say, the lack of it) continues to build up."

I do not want to dispute the trend away from God, although i think one can dispute whether this trend is based on "evidence". The trend could well be explained by desires to indulge oneself materially without having to reflect too much on the morality of one's actions or those of one's government.

What I would say is that if there is such a thing as a process by which "beliefs" evolve then it must be one in which ONLY the consequences matter. It must be a process that is indifferent to justice and injustice, which of course is antithetical to the whole notion of us acting upon our beliefs.

Acting upon our beliefs requires a process of contemplation that defies your evolutionary model. It entails meditating on whether our actions are right or wrong, just or unjust, fair or exploitative. It cannot be deduced from the level of social development, knowledge, division of labour, material wealth or power (features of evolving civilisations).

How does Banjo Patterson (or, more generally, culture) fit into your evolutionary model? Are his poems mere chronicles or expressions of his inner experience?

salaam
grateful

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Dear grateful,

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As Richard Feynman (Nobel prize in physics, 1965) is reported to have said, "A great deal more is known than has been proved".

One of the things I feel I "know" is that human society pre-exited religion. Prior to religion, society developed customs, habits and traditions which constituted acceptable conduct.

Morality is a system of cooperation within the community based on those customs, habits and traditions. It is a code of conduct. Respect of the code is right and non-respect is wrong.

The first animist religions were invented as a means of defence against natural phenomena which terrified primeval man. He had no warning of them and no control over them. Through the evolutionary process he developed the ability to conceptualize, imagining that invisible, supernatural forces were the cause of the phenomena.

He attributed a God to each of them, to which he submitted himself, begging their forgiveness and mercy. When that didn't work, he offered gifts and sacrifices, including human sacrifices which today we call scapegoats, the sacrifice of one to save the many. The myth of Jesus of Nazareth is a notable example.

As religion developed it elaborated its own code of conduct (morality). The Decalogue (Ten Commandments) is a good example.

Please forgive me for being pedantic but It is important to recall this historical sequence of events in order to understand that it is possible for morality and religion to exist independently of each other.

Belief, or faith, is by no means a prerequisite for morality.

Indeed, I have known cases of fervent religious practitioners who most people consider to be perfectly immoral. Paedophile priests are a good example, but there are many others.

You may find the following article of interest:

http://fair-use.org/bertrand-russell/the-elements-of-ethics/section-iii

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