Dear luciferase,

Of course you are right in condemning the school system in forcing teachers to deal with difficult behaviour problems. To force parents to send children to such schools is wrong. However, the fact is that some parents at present have no alternative but to send their children to such schools. We are already forcing parents without the money to send children to those schools. We need to improve our public schools by relieving teachers of problem children and seeing that those children are in places where qualified professional help can deal with them. This costs money. It comes down to that. The government prefers to shortchange children and parents in public schools.

Rubbish David, it has nothing to do with money. What it has to do with is discipline.

Bet you if we brought in the Singapore cane method of discipline here, troublesome students would be a thing of the past damn quick.

Teachers with no discipline resources have no chance. I had a girlfriend who was deputy head of a Sydney inner city primary school. New teachers were warned to stay away from the 3 story buildings, when in the playground, unless they liked the idea of having something dropped on their head.

No suitable discipline could be applied, particularly to one group of students of a certain ethnicity, so she got out.

From what I heard, things only got worse.

Lifting kids out of the mainstream system to meet their special needs costs money, so david f is right. The cane, like a sword, is double edged and leads to as much good as bad, IMO (having been a recipient myself at times).

In an early post on this thread Foyle said,

1. "Unearned respect for tradition and authority has no place in education." and
2. "Respect has to be earned and the better teachers earn that respect."

My comments on what I perceive to be the root of problems are based on
the above being true, with qualifications.

1. is incorrect as a starting position for students to adopt. Respect from them and towards them should be expected at the outset. If respect is to be lost it should be for very, very good reasons. Unruly kids most often have no basis for their disrespect as displayed through their behaviour towards teachers and fellow students.

2. is correct. Teachers earn respect by respecting their students, which the vast majority do. All else stems from this. This respect extends to the provision of quality learning experiences for which teachers fairly expect to be respected.

Many students have either no wish or no idea how to behave appropriately enough in group situations (classrooms)to allow the group to progress. They are resistant to being trained and, as a last resort, segregation and individualized interaction is needed. This is what david f talking about.

The most expensive school to run in NSW is the Glenfield Special schools - a public school. This is due to the schools having a very high teacher/staff to student ratio as the students have high special needs (often a combination of behavioural issues and disability eg. Autistic students with additional behavioral issues due to dysfunctional family background). I visited these schools once: the teachers are extremely dedicated (despite having a locked staff room to prevent staff belongings being stolen); and there are lovely grounds, with a chook-yard and veggie garden. This school transforms kids to make them future productive members of society. It's expensive, but not as expensive as paying for disability support pensions or, worse, prison accommodation, for these children in the future.