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The Forum > Article Comments > Abandoning Julian > Comments

Abandoning Julian : Comments

By John Pilger, published 18/2/2013

WikiLeaks is a rare truth teller; smearing Julian Assange is shameful.

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Certainly raises questions about freedom and many issues of law.

The UK has spent more than $4 million to "guard" him http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2279579/Police-watch-Ecuadorian-embassy-Assange-hiding-close-3m-Scotland-Yard-says.html?ito=feeds-newsxml - Perhaps the UK considers it well spent?

Wonder what Wikileaks can reveal about Ben's fate.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 18 February 2013 8:38:11 AM
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if there is a criminal case against Mr Assange, can it not be conducted either in Scotland or The Hague?
Otherwise it'll turn out to be like the Cardinal Mindzenty stalemate, benefiting no one and obscuring a truth that should be shouted from the rooftops over to an ignorant and acquiescent world bogged down in supeficial pleasures and limited vision.
Posted by SHRODE, Monday, 18 February 2013 10:21:38 AM
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Julian Assange set out to use stolen information to damage the West and America in particular. Why would he do this? He is wanted in Sweden (a very responsible and fair nation) to answer charges of rape, but he remains holed up in London. Why, if he is innocent? As usual, John Pilger sees a hero when the real image is a somewhat grubby, eccentric misfit.
Posted by Pliny of Perth, Monday, 18 February 2013 11:13:11 AM
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I'm sure Julian is a nice boy, maybe a bit naughty.

The problem is from the perspective of the average punter, is that hiding in the Ecuadorain embassy, he looks as guilty as hell. Not really freedom fighter material.

Now the US might put a bag over his head and transport him to somewhere nasty if he leaves the embassy but the US has shown no sign of that so far.
Posted by Cheryl, Monday, 18 February 2013 11:19:08 AM
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According to reports in the press, Assange has nominated for the Senate in Victoria in the next Federal election.
What a feather in Australia's cap if he were to be elected!
@Cheryl posted 18 February 2013 11:19:08 AM - Your naivety would be touching were it not so dangerous. Have you not followed Obama's record on whistle blowers? The man has the tolerance for criticism of an Idi Amin.
Posted by halduell, Monday, 18 February 2013 11:34:51 AM
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I stand corrected halduell. We have a Senator in SA, a Mr Xenophon, who has done bugger all for the last five years except getting kicked out of Malaysia. I'm sure Julian could have his seat. Or possibly we could elect Julian to be our special senator for the Ecuadorian Embassy for Life - which has an Idi Amin ring to it.
Posted by Cheryl, Monday, 18 February 2013 12:50:02 PM
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I always enjoy John Pilgers Articles here... such fun !

It's an insight how the "other" 0.01% "think".

The best read since Monty Python.
Posted by Aspley, Monday, 18 February 2013 1:03:15 PM
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Pliny, as I understand it there are no charges. The allegations I've seen don't involve rape as most of us would understand it.

Correct me if you have a credible source for a contrary view but my understanding of the situation is roughly the following

- Authorities would like to interview Assange regarding complaints which have been made of a sexual nature which do not involving allegations of rape or other forced or cooersive sexual actions.
- Authorities are insisting that the interview be conducted in Sweden
- Assange has previously expressed a willingness to be interviewed in Britian, either face to face or via electronic means.
- He has already been interviewed over the allegations and at that time a decision was made not to proceed with the matter
- Sweden has refused to give any undertaking that he would not be handed over to a third party on unrelated charges if he was to travel to Sweden for the requested interview

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 18 February 2013 1:14:25 PM
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It is disappointing that the anti-Wilikeaks mob think it more appropriate to attack the messenger or the leaker than to address the corruption that much of the information reveals.

Abandoning Julian is about pandering to US interests which sometimes Australian governments of all stripes link to our own. The fiasco that was Iraq should be enough evidence that blind adherence is not in our interest or in the interests of other nations where the US has sought to use their influence to benefit US corporations (who also generously fund political campaigns).

I don't know if Assange is guilty or not of the allegations (it was not rape if I remember correctly). RObert is right, there have been no charges laid, the Swedish authorities are being pig-headed in their refusal to interview Assange in the UK. Remember they want to question him not the other way around and innocence is assumed until proven guilty. Sweden as many other countries, have often interviewed people offshore to expedite the process. Why not this time?

More importantly why is Australia not doing more to protect his rights or to at least facilitate a meeting with the Swedes. Isn't this what consular assistance is about?

What about the secret Grand Jury meeting in the US of which no-one knows the outcome. The fear of Assange being extradited to the US are real, one only has to look to the past behaviours when a group or individual (or a country) is deemed to be working against US interests.

It is about time that the US realises that their wellbeing (ie. the wellbeing of the wealthiest 1%) is not more important than every other nation's wellbeing. Or more important than eradicating poverty through more equitable economic policies, or damaging the environment from lack of oversight over oil and mining companies.

But now I am getting carried away.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 18 February 2013 1:39:27 PM
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If this gentleman is innocent, as claimed, why then does he feel the need to remain in the embassy ? Would it not be better for both his own well being (his health) as well as his peace of mind, to simply go to Sweden, confront these charges. And if it turns out that he is innocent, he can then move on happily with his life. And if he feel's so motivated, 'knock off' a few more scandalous 'dregs', ostensibly belonging to some other country, in order to further titillate those few who are really interested ?

Or maybe he want's to remain in the embassy, in order to ensure the public 'spotlight' remains firmly on him ? They say all publicity is good, for some I suppose ? Or do we dare ever believe (perhaps) he and Johnno Pilger are in it together, for a piece of mutual publicity, as both their public persona's are extensively waning ?

I believe another contributor herein has said, he's allegedly stolen material ('intellectual property'), belonging to other countries ? Therefore, shouldn't he also be brought to account for that too ?

It's interesting really, whenever there's a 'cause' no matter how indistinct, vague or obscure it's objectives may be, there's old Johnno Pilger, by his own admission, standing out there in the bitter London cold, with people a quarter his age ? Surely, wouldn't it be in his best interests to be at home in Hammersmith, feet up before the fire, watching re-runs of 'Coronation Street' ?
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 18 February 2013 2:23:23 PM
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Julian Assange did not steal anything, he simply allowed documents to be published that were leaked to him by a whistleblower, as did most of the world's media.

For heaven's sake, why is it that in Australia today law does not matter, human rights don't matter and so on.

I remember well being abused shockingly over being at the first and every other rally for David Hicks to be released from Gitmo, but in the end all charges against him were found to be illegal and bogus yet he was allowed to rot for years.

Now we have the case of Ben Zygier, another Australian abroad, who was allowed to rot by Australia, the Bali 9 turned in by the AFP and so on.

Being an Australian citizen has to mean something but not once has Australia done a single thing to assist Assange.

He is an international hero and with all due respect for Jemima her claim to celebrity is being born a spoilt little rich girl who married a famous hunky cricketer.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Monday, 18 February 2013 3:01:16 PM
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On Sung perhaps he is staying there, because he has found some ladies in there, who don't mind being shared.

Should we abandon him? You bet, but as with the rules of the sea, we should sink him as we go. We can't leave a danger to all honest seafarers drifting around where it may cause more damage than it is worth. He is an endangerment the innocent.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 18 February 2013 3:19:23 PM
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o sung wu
Assange sought asylum in the Ecuadorian Embassy after gaining knowledge about the US Grand Jury meeting to discuss possible extradition ie. to face charges of espionage. I believe Assange has been labelled an enemy of the state. Wikileaks publishes documents in the same way that journalists publish stories. It was perceived that Sweden was more likely to extradite Assange than the UK who have a history of telling the US to shove it (albeit more diplomatically) in some instances.

I am glad there is a Wikileaks and similar groups popping up all over the place. It is a shame we need them to facilitate the sharing of information, if our governments acted as truly representative democracies.

Much of the discussion around Wikileaks centres around the personality of Julian Assange rather than what he has achieved through Wikileaks. I don't know what sort of person Julian Assange is, he may be a bit eccentric, maybe you have to be just a bit, to succeed in establishing such an organisation. You certainly need courage. It is all conjecture in any case.

Wikileaks and Assange are often accused of being anti-American. This is to oversimplify. Many Americans support Wikileaks even if their government sees the group as a threat. Well it is a threat to those who seek to serve their own interests over all others. Wikileaks is pro-information and is about getting the truth of events out in the public arena.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 18 February 2013 3:37:03 PM
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Why is Hasbeen allowed to call for murder here?
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Monday, 18 February 2013 4:36:42 PM
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Julian Assange knows that he will end up like Bradley Manning with no trial ,legal council or rights.It was Bradley Manning who fed info to Assange.Obama's NDAA should raise the concern of all freedom loving people in the West.

The National Defence Authorisation Act gives absolute power to the US Military to arrest anyone in the West indefinetely,with no accountability.This is happening to Bradley Manning.

Fascism is afoot in the West and the populace at large are clueless.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 18 February 2013 5:01:32 PM
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Hi Marilyn

I agree with your post. The Israeli's might well be brutal in cracking down on Wikileaks activities within their borders but the blogasphere is helping a bit.

The best ongoing commentary I've found about Ben is Richard Silverstein's blog (Tikun Olum) http://www.richardsilverstein.com/ .

In posts like http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/02/15/israeli-intelligence-sanitized-zygiers-cell-after-hanging/ "Israeli Intelligence Sanitized Zygier’s Cell After Hanging, Family Demands Millions in Damages" Richard goes into impressive detail on what the MSM and Governments aren't saying and probably won't say. For example:

"Magen David Adom was summoned in order to certify [Ben's] death. As opposed to other similar cases, the police were only called later. Even then [after they arrived] they and the forensics lab personnel were not permitted to enter the cell to examine the scene. Only hours later, after officials from different security and police agencies visited the site, was the forensics team permitted to enter."

Israeli whistleblowers working through Richard's Jewish-American blog are getting some info out.
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 18 February 2013 5:07:41 PM
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Hi there PELICAN...

Thank you for providing a comprehensive, albeit brief summary, on the activities of Julian A. I must confess, I know little about him, other than what's been said on Radio and TV.

I take on board absolutely what good you say he's done, in terms of appraising the public at large, of those 'leaked' activities conducted by the US and her allies, ostensibly in secret. And I've found much of what you say on OLO and the Forum, both sensible and intelligent. Obviously, you know much more about this bloke then I do.

However, I'm from the 'old school' PELICAN, and I sincerely believe, that certain material or information, whether spoken or documentary, if it's not meant for public consumption, should therefore remain 'protected' and confidential. Therefore it should remain totally, in the care, custody, and control of the original owners. Or the actual originators of that material.

Otherwise, our way of life, our privacy would be forever compromised or thwart, by all manner of commercial espionage, corporate infiltration, and counter-intelligence. Believe it or not my friend, in some parts of the world, there's very very big bucks involved in this type of commercial crime.

Whether Julian A. is guilty of trading in 'leaked' protected material, I've no idea ? He's at least, involved as 'an accessory after the fact'. And if there's a 'knowledge' before that 'leaking', it may well amount to a 'conspiracy' ?

PELICAN, I realize there are many many people around the world who perceive Julian A. as a popular folk hero. But there are some authorities within several countries he has allegedly offended against, who consider him far less favourably, I'm afraid ?

Thank you PELICAN.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 18 February 2013 5:17:12 PM
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Marilyn, when did disposal of ones garbage become murder?

Here we have the sort of bloke who would sell his mother, or us, if there was a quid in it for him.

You lefties do choose strange bed follows.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 18 February 2013 5:43:50 PM
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G'day HASBEEN...

You're wasting your breath and time with that one I'm afraid !

Stay cool !
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 18 February 2013 7:24:58 PM
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o sung wu " I sincerely believe, that certain material or information, whether spoken or documentary, if it's not meant for public consumption, should therefore remain 'protected' and confidential. Therefore it should remain totally, in the care, custody, and control of the original owners. Or the actual originators of that material."

Agreed to a point however in the case of government documents that carries with it responsibility that those acting in the name of the government act honestly and ethically. There is a place for secrets but not to further personal or party political interests using the taxpayers resources or government authority.

We don't seem to have reliable mechanisms to deal with it when that's not the case. It's difficult when the original owners are the citizens of a nation, it's difficult to return to them custody or control of material they own without exposing it to others.

There is also a case that when outsiders are impacted by the actions of a government (as we all are by the actions of nations such as the USA) they have some vested interest in the truth of claims made.

The issues around Wikileaks facilitation of the publication of documents belonging to the citizens of the USA (and I believe other countries) is not as simple as taking an individual or corporations private records and making them public. It's about trying to find a balance between governments being able to protect some secrets to improve the safety of their citizens and governments using that same secrecy in a way that harms those same citizens.

Politicians who hide behind official secrecy to protect their own wrongdoings present a far greater danger than any number of Assanges.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 18 February 2013 8:43:05 PM
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"He is wanted in Sweden (a very responsible and fair nation)"

wait.. what... the first prosecutor said the case was not worthy of prosecution, they had to go through two more to find one who would. This, a nation where the Prime Minister was assassinated in the 'late '80 and their Foreign Minister not that long ago... lovely. I met several Swedish citizens when I lived in Cambodia, they were all incredibly ashamed over their nations treatment of Assange and each of them said it's there belief it's perused rigorously on behalf of the US.

"In the very liberal Sweden, it is rape if a man breaks a condom by accident or on purpose during otherwise mutually desired intercourse"

To most men not in Sweden, the thought of this would be horrific and yet many are in prison for this very crime, of which Mr Assange is accused.

The last thing you want to do is end up in the clutches of US Law enforcement, facilitate copying a few movies and you will be gaoled for a decade, for example

http://www.dw.de/british-woman-fights-sons-extradition-to-us/a-16248544-1

Assange should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize at minimum, then funded by every democratic Government to get on with the job.
Posted by Valley Guy, Monday, 18 February 2013 8:45:00 PM
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o sung wu
I respect your opinions and views too even if we disagree in some areas. :)

My feelings are similar to ROberts'. Too often governments and public servants hide behind the veil of secrecy to avoid disclosing information. There really is very little that is secret or that would come under confidential or national security classifications. Obviously there are very good reasons for secrecy in those contexts.

However you and I have both worked for government (you as an ex-policemen) and I am sure we have both experienced situations and observed things that are not quite kosher and subsequent efforts to hide information for various reasons. Some higher level classifications are overused.

When governments start hiding information from their electorate inappropriately (whom they represent) it is a shame that it takes groups like Wikileaks or whistleblowers like Wilkie (just for example) to make the public aware of what lies behind the decisions made on our behalf.

I don't think it is asking too much for information to be readily available through a more open government focus. Unfortunately history teaches us that this sort of change is more often done via resistance, protest or dissent at some level.

Democracy is best served through the sharing of information otherwise we end up with elitists in power who decide what information is presented, how it is presented and for what purpose.

At least on a positive note, in this country we can both put forward differing opinions without fear of gaol or persecution. That is something we should always be thankful for.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 18 February 2013 10:01:59 PM
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Hi there ROBERT...

Yes, you mount a fairly persuasive arguement there ROBERT. And as we all know, there are some governments not that far away, who deserve a thorough enquiry as to their conduct, apropos exactly what they're doing in our name ?

Your case though morally strong, is (in my opinion) still technically in breach the law. And just how far, are we as private citizens permitted to 'snoop' into protected material ? Simply because we have a belief even a presentiment that our government is engaged in some turbid misfeasance, that's contrary to the public good ?

In so doing, what is it we are bound to do, if during our secret enquiry, we inadvertantly uncover a bit of 'hanky panky' behind the Cabinet's door ? How do we decide what material exactly we should expose to the light of public scrutiny ? What makes us the sole arbiter or what's right, or what's wrong ?

And suppose we release or expose material, that causes a major incident between two antagonistic nations, leading to a serious security incident, who takes responsibility for such a result ?

Don't get me wrong ROBERT, you mount a very strong 'moral' arguement by your assertion the public, the voters, have a 'right to know' exactly what their elected government's doing, or not doing, every minute, of every day ?

I just wonder though, exactly what Julian A's motive was/is ? They say in my previous occupation, '...first, follow the money...' in following Julian, I do wonder why he did what he did ? What benefit did he receive, if so what ? Or is it something far more personal with this gentleman, perhaps he perceives himself as the surpreme guardian for the good of the masses ?

You would agree ROBERT, he's one very strange bloke ?

Many thanks for your thread.
Posted by o sung wu, Monday, 18 February 2013 10:11:28 PM
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I agree with you o sung wu.
There are many 'secrets' within Governments that the public don't need to know, and in fact could cause much harm to that country or others if they are made known.

Assange is a bit dramatic as far as I am concerned.
Hiding in a foreign embassy in England so he can't be arrested by any number of other countries, seems a bit extreme.
Just how long can this go on?
Surely his mental health must be affected badly by now.

As to the assertion that he is hiding there to avoid being extradited to Sweden to answer to allegations of sexual assault, but believes Sweden really wants to hand him over to the US, I don't buy it.

I have no doubt that if the US really wanted to arrest Assange, they wouldn't need to do it through Sweden.
Posted by Suseonline, Monday, 18 February 2013 11:33:11 PM
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o sung wu, I doubt that Assange is someone I'd relate to easily. He does come across as strange but in balance I like the fact that there are those willing to stand up to dishonest and or corrupt politicians and others exercising the power of Government in an unethical manner.

Legal processes rarely seem to touch them for the big wrongs. For example there seems to be plenty of evidence that the claims used to justify the war in Iraq were fabricated and or massively overstated yet none of the main players in that are facing criminal sanction. I don't know if that a matter of those responsible for enforcing the law failing to do so when it comes to political bosses or laws which do not adequately cover their actions.

Either way if I have to choose between the law and ethics I know which I prefer.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 4:59:36 PM
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Good evening, SUSEONLINE and ROBERT...

I must tell you both, of a strange event an hour or so ago ? Catching up with some of my Emails, I sent you both a relatively short piece each, amounting to no more than 200+- words. They were in response to your previous 'threads'. Both were despatched after I'd completed them one after another ? Yet there's no evidence of them being received ?

This peculiar phenomenon, has happened more than half a dozen times in the preceding four or five weeks. Is it me, or something wrong with my trusty computer ? I'm over seventy years of age now, and I (more like the 'Department of Veterans' Affairs'), probably support our local pharmacy, in a lifestyle of luxury and affluence. A curious event I'm sure you'd agree ?

Anyway, to the topic at hand, sorry...

I agree with both of your summations, relating to Julian's character.
In fact I'd go as far to say, there's probably no one person really 'close' to him ? Do either of you think, he sees himself as a crusader ? And ROBERT, I do understand when you say that very important, evocative word, a word that most of our Pollies don't know, or if they know, don't understand...'ethics' !

And I agree with you absolutely, I too would like to remove the 'rooves', and let in fresh air and light, to permit entry of vast quantities of 'honesty' and 'integrity' into these large public buildings. Buildings that, ostensibly house men of great power and influence, but also shelter men of doubtful integrity and often bereft of any ethical standards. It is then, when these 'trusted' men furtively, apply official secrecy, or confidentiality, to conceal their public malfeasance, or worse, engage in wholesale criminal corruption of the worst kind. Crimes against those lamentable souls, who originally entrusted and endowed them with the power to defend and preserve their rights. Then 'be it so' !

But should it not occur within the law, is all I'm saying ?
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:13:11 PM
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Pilger's, schadenfreude kerfuffle over defiant Assange - holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy for 6 months, and rapidly taxing his beleaguered host's patience, is another frivolous attempt to exonerate, a guilty verdict ? This contemporary article first appeared in the New Statesman & Guardian before OLO.

Evidently, Assange's once staunch supporters grow tired of his ( spoiled child )obtrusive antics and disparage his mental state in confinement. Activist - cultist, Jimima Khan having paid bail money up front, is disillusioned he will forfeit, and make a run for a Victorian Senate seat. His host recently described him as an " insufferable narcissist " !

His supporters are waning. Oxford students protested a planned visit. Ecuador didn't achieve the kudos and notoriety it sought. Slut-Walk ditched it's protest march. Khan went ballistic. Gibney's " 5th Estate " documentary floundered and flopped.

Whether you regard his incarceration as a perversion of truth & justice ; a vendetta by the CIA, to imprison him at Gitmo ( Hick's saga )DFAT Minister Carr's dubious naivety, offering unsolicited protection for Oz citizen's abroad ? Our introverted perception of our self importance, and status in the World ?

The case underscores WikiLeaks propaganda.Scape goat & fall guy Bradley Manning, and others leaked sensitive Military info, which conceivably risked people's lives, resources,etc. In effect embarrassing and undermining the Pentagon & US Foreign Office. Both leaked like a sieve.

At the end of the Day, one would have to ask : Holistic self abnegation ? self aggrandizement ? Notoriety ? Hero worship ? Abuse of People's rights ?

Is this the end of Assange, or just the beginning ?
Posted by dalma, Thursday, 21 February 2013 9:46:07 AM
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This is the usual hippy rubbish that Pilger dishes out.

Julian is a spoilt brat, he wouldn't know hardship if
it walked up and bit him, because he has sucked off
the teat of the very Western countries
he seeks to denigrate, all his life.

He'd wet his pants if ever he had to go and fight
the Taliban or Al Qaeda. They'd kill him as soon
as look at him. Then he'd wonder why he didn't
support his own country instead of them. It would
be too late by the time he woke up though.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 24 February 2013 10:28:36 PM
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