The world is a wonderful & beautiful place, despite all the negativity frequently preached at us. Nature is wonderful. Biology is wonderful.

Humanity and its many endeavours, is intriguing, despite all the negativity broadcast at us. We all have desires for happiness centred in happy and valuable social interactions. These are more likely with less sectarianism.

Ah, the predictable turn to nature. I agree, nature is beautiful except, perhaps the ebola virus and quite a few other very nasty things. The Christmas day Tsunami was nature at its most powerful, thousands of lives snuffed out in a short time. The problem with nature is that it is dumb, what does it say? If it bears witness to life it equally bears witness to death. The two cancel each other out.

Heavens, between the always boring efforts of the Singer to whitewash Israel and the two topics on God and why we should concentrate on the beauty of Jesus, I wonder whether OLO is going strange on us or, perhaps, it has been taken over by a radical religious institution!

Of course, there is the article on sex with your pet to balance things up a bit. What worries me is the situation of the man in the street trying to juggle the perfect image of Jesus with a man having sex with his canary. It is likely to lead to short in the mental system of most humans and acts of madness!

OLO should be careful what it wishes for!

I write not in anger at “The Church”, nor at any belief system within which a civilized society is enabled - but!
I do write in apprehension as to what reforming zealotry might accomplish; there are many babies in the bathwater.
I find beauty in many of the trappings of religions: the stained-glass windows, beautifully-structured altars such as that one made of Jarrah in the Catholic Church of Margaret River, the glow of sunshine on that spire-mounted crescent-moon of Canberra’s mosque, the spontaneous musicality of many Welsh in their Methodism, absolutely “divine” renditions of Handel’s Messiah and such-like (why does this music need interpretation of the accompanying cadence of human voice?).
We just have to face it - when the Lion lies down with the Lamb, the good and the bad are intertwined. That is the nature of things, and the bad part of all beliefs is so much totalitarian attitude associated with a lack of understanding of this.

As an atheist with a Anglican upbringing I still love the language of the King James bible and the Book of Common Prayer. The modern dumbing down of the language of worship is not only an insult to the intelligence of the congregation , it makes being in church (weddings, funerals) an excruciating experience.

Peter Sellick offers us a "back to the future' aesthetic (rather than theological) response to his question, "What now for the Church in late modernity?"

Nice, Pete - but no cigar! No mention of confronting the issues of modernity with a relevant ecclesial institutional response. There is no mention of an institutional and much needed "reformation" that must deal with the real issues of clerical sexual abuse of children, or the notion of enforced celibacy in the 21st century, or the negative response to women by some mainline churches.

Where is the "example" of a lived Christianity by those very people who have "devoted" their lives to Gospel values? if Peter is correct is surmising that the Christian "be different from the surrounding culture" then why is it so hard to see this even superficially in the wider community? For example, when is the last time you saw a "clerical collar" in the wider community giving witness to this particular chosen vocation?

More pertinently, the Christian churches continuously fail to give witness to "Christ's living presence" because they have themselves become so enmeshed in the secularism of their own age that any distinction between "them and us" no longer applies.

Yuri

'The Church is an alternate polity that is fundamentally different from the world around us, especially in our world of late modernity. Our worship should reflect that difference. Conformity to this world will make the Church just another part of the world and not a very interesting part'

Your final para is where many would part company with the rest of your article (if not before). The Church is not different to the world around us, it is part of the world whether you like it or not. The beauty of Christ (if one takes the religious view) is not separate from the beauty of nature or the beauty of people when they are at their best. If the Church sees the rest of the world as not very interesting it cannot have a meaningful role. For my two pennies worth, the Church needs to embrace the real world for if it does not how can it serve the needs of the people who attend.

It is saddening to see many people finding a lack of joy in the real world in favour of the supernatural. Perhaps this is why religion will survive if it brings solace and comfort to so many. I just hope the comfort and solace it brings is also reflected in behaviours that work for a better world rather than just a worship of a higher figure in and of itself.

COMPETITION BETWEEN CHURCHES

The contradictory statements in this article of dense prose makes it unclear whether the author wants to bring back the traditional Hymns that might bring back congregations. I'm talking "There is a green hill far away" and of course "All things bright and beautiful"

Doesn't matter if their lyrics fail an intellectual test. Songs work and attract on a different level.

On sectarian competition I recall Toowoomba in 2003. While the Anglican Church was shrinking Church of Christ and more so Assembly of God (AoG) where booming. AoG had some Cathedral size Churches seating 2,000 at a time, 3 sessions a day.

This was partly because AoG has speaking in tongues, the drumkits and pop groups.

AoG targetted younger interests (toddlers to 50yo) and significantly preached how-to paths to material success and money. The Minister's (facilitator? whatever) low tax car plan was part of his sermon and he exhorted families to give $100 each in order to buy the block of land next door.

Meanwhile Anglican Churches had small congregations dying off - average age around 71. A comfortable peer group or an attempt to pack in more Church time in one's last years to avoid Hell in the presumed Afterlife.

I don't pretend to understand Mr Sellick's argumentation on this subject, as it is obscured beneath a mass of relentlessly in-house logic. Which, as far as I am concerned, renders it impenetrable to the non-Christian.

But I do understand methodologies, just a little, and this line stood out for me.

>>The way forward consists not so much in doing a new thing but in doing an old thing more rigorously.<<

In business, this is the fastest route to self-destruction that you could select. It has even spawned its own label...

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

If Mr Sellick were to emerge for a moment from his protective carapace and face reality, he would know this. The reason people desert one particular path and choose another is because they are dissatisfied with the path they are on.

Doing the same thing, only more so, is not going to alter the fundamentals. If your car mechanic does a poor job when fixing your car, the solution is not to take it to him more often. More relevantly, if you are in fact that car mechanic, you are not going to improve your product by doing more of the same thing.

I suspect that Mr Sellick has missed one key point, which is that the product itself has changed, and requires a different form of marketing these days. He finds himself holding a heavy black bakelite instrument with a twisted brown cord that plugs into the wall, when everyone else is queuing up for the next iPhone.

One wonders if any of the 20th century ever happened, or if we are living in the 21st when reading this naive, nostalgic, sentimental back-to-the-past mommy-daddy religiosity.

Humankind at the end of the 20th century killed its Deity, in every form that the Deity has been conceived. The Deity was killed off by both the anti-"culture" of scientism AND reductionist anti-Spiritual exoteric religion/religiosity.

Humanity needs to be reassociated with Reality Itself, Truth Itself, and The Beautiful Itself. Even in order to support ordinary human life, humanity needs access to the ESOTERIC Truth of existence and thereby the real experience of that Truth.
There must be a ressurection of Consciousness in the 21st century - just as there was a "death" of Consciousness in the 20th century. For the sake of humanity, there needs to be a commitment to do this - now, and forever hereafter. Otherwise people are left with the dismal exoteric point of view, a point of view that is thoroughly reductionist, and even aggressively anti-Spiritual.

Nowadays, there are, at best only sentimental, nostalgic gestures towards the ancient esoteric understanding that Consciousness transcends physical existence.

Notice that, tragically, Sells doesnt even refer to or use the word Consciousness!

Where to from here, for real?

This reference describes the thoroughly conformed to the world power-and-control-seeking worldliness of the Christian ecclesiastical establishment,whether in Rome or anywhere else.
http://global.adidam.org/truth-book/true-spiritual-practice-4.html
This reference describes how the usual dreadfully sane religionist (such as Sells) is trapped in the paradigm of scientism (while pretending otherwise)
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/gnosticon/universal-scientism.aspx

This reference describes what is required for the future of humankind.
http://www.adidam.org/teaching/aletheon/truth-life.aspx

These references provide a radical Spiritual critique of the usual "official" Christian mumbo-jumbo, including the fabricated origins and political purposes of the "New" Testament.
http://www.dabase.org/up-5-1.htm
http://www.aboutadidam.org/articles/secret_identity/beyond_public.html
http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/birthday_message/index.html

These two references are about Art & Sacred Culture.
http://www.aboutadidam.org/readings/art_is_love/index.html
http://www.adidaupclose.org/Art_and_Photography/rebirth_of_sacred_art.html

This reference provides a unique Understanding of Postmodernism, and the limits of Western philosophy, whether old or "new".

http://www.adidaupclose.org/FAQs/postmodernism2.html

Well, I enjoyed this article. It really resonated with me, and I found myself wanting more.

I live in Sydney and occasionally attend an increasingly evangelical Anglican church. I very much miss the rituals that have been dumped in favour of a stripped-down fundamentalist theology.

Where have the rich layers of meaning gone? Why does every sermon sound exactly the same, regardless of what passage of scripture is supposedly being expounded?

Surely the answer to the question of how one should live one's life is not simply "Go forth and evangelize"?

Religion evolved as a way for frail, fallible humans to connect with the good. A way to keep reminding ourselves of the ideals that are worth striving for. The shallow parody of religion I see around me today just doesn't cut the mustard.

Although Sells likes to pretend otherwise he is an advocate of pop religion.

The usual dreadfully sane religionist functions only in the gross technical sense. He/she is reduced by the influences of the human world to an unconscious robot of personal drives, conventional ideas, and social motives, all of which are kept under control by the locally standard social propaganda and its closed system of stimulus-response techniques. The social influences that are generated to "educate" and control human beings in every part of the world are all basically of the kind that is now popularly declaimed as "brainwashing" whenever the "educational" propaganda of "others" is being criticized or mocked.

People whose minds and bodies are under the control of the basic machinery of the State collective are not generally involved with the free pursuit of Truth in any ultimate sense. Such a pursuit is essentially taboo. Only popular or pop religion is permitted.

Pop religion and "theology" are basically tools of the gross social order. They consist of systems of propagandized belief. The practice associated with such popular belief systems is, at its worst, nothing more than the continuous affirmation of those beliefs and, at its best, the embodiment of those beliefs in the form of socially benign or materially productive behaviors.

"Practice" in such religion is generally associated with essentially suppressive disciplines relative to personal pleasure, taboos against exclusive commitments to any kind of asocial mystical subjective life, and intense demands for productive and enthusiastic social action

In this manner, the dreadfully sane social ego is mechanically reproduced in the form of millions of unconscious robotized clones in each generation, much in the same manner, and for the same basic purpose, as "worker" bees in a hive. Conventional pop religion is thus tailored to serve such social functionaries. The standard "gospel" is that enthusiastic social existence and "salvation" are the same.

The basic purpose of such religion is to guarantee the social order through the development of altruism and the propagandizing of anxiety-reducing messages.
There is of course nothing wrong with such purposes, but only up to a point.

Yes Bruva, Sista or exalted Trannie. Religion is the Opiate of the Masses wot oppresses us.

"If only we used more popular tunes to sing."

Not to worry, Peter -- I've written you a song! It's especially for apophatists, and it's called 'Hymn Zero'. You will, I hope, recognise the tune.

The original is here: http://religiousatrocities.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/uk-hymn-zero/

All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small.
The Lord God didn’t make them
Or anything at all.

He didn’t make the planets,
He didn’t light the sun.
You could quite easily fill a book,
With things he hasn’t done.

All things real and actual,
Each outcome and result,
It wasn’t God who did them,
And nor did He consult.

He doesn’t show at Easter,
At Christmas he’s not here,
He’s not around on Hannukah,
Or any time of year.

All things that are miraculous,
All supernatural acts,
The Lord God didn’t do them,
According to the facts.

He didn’t summon Adam,
He didn’t raise up Eve,
He didn’t lift a finger,
Well, that’s what we believe.

All things proud and positive,
Each trait and property,
The Lord God doesn’t have them,
He’s just vacuity.

Not old, not wise, not jealous,
Not powerful or kind.
He doesn’t feel emotions
He doesn’t have a mind.

All things to do with measurement,
You have to realise,
They don’t apply in any way,
Position, weight or size.

No origin or history,
No angels round to sing,
When Moses saw His backside,
He didn’t see a thing.

God’s terribly important,
We’re careful to insist,
In spite of His refu-u-sal
To actually exist.

Jon, your little song is marvelous and refreshing, a stand-out among all this silly theobabble and religious fraud.

For those of us who are brave enough to live in the real world and accept its reality, it gives hope that, one day, the world might embrace reality and throw childish superstition and wishful thinking into the dustbin of history.

Peter raises some interesting questions, but I’m not sure the answers he provides will work. There is an aesthetic element to worship, but it is not a performance; or at least, not as one might expect. Kierkegaard’s famous theatre analogy seems apt here. He said that people wrongly assume that when they go to church, God is conducting, the priests/musicians/readers etc. are performing, and the congregation is the audience. But in fact the ministers are conducting, the congregation is performing, and God is the audience.

There is a certain vanity common among Anglo-Catholic clergy that believes the effectiveness of a service rests on how well the worship leaders “perform”. If only the music is just so, the setting is beautiful the gestures and liturgy and sermon and vestments and hymns are in sync, and the congregation does what it ought to, all will be well. This is in fact not so far removed from the evangelicals who use pop music and pop psychology to make their congregations feel good; though with the Anglo-Catholics, of course, the ‘performance’ is much more tasteful.

It is true than many modern people may see church services as a performance in which the music, sermons and drama are for their amusement and often fall well short of the professional standard we can now all access at the flick of a TV or IPod. But we should not pander to that expectation by turning worship into entertainment. I think that true church has room for the worshipper happily warbling the hymns off key, the intellectually handicapped lady stumbling painfully through your favourite reading, or the odd guy who smells of urine and eats all the cakes at morning tea.

In most capitals you can find aesthetically flawless traditional worship in the cathedrals (sorry Sydney Anglicans - Rhys Probert, have you been to St James King Street?), but you might also find it rather sterile after a while.

Jon J
ouch - that's really rather funny

Well the good news is that Jesus Christ Himself said that He would build His church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it. Denominations and styles will come and go. The winds and testings will make all man made structures that many long after tumble. The gospel thank God, will and is continuing to rescue people from hinduism, Islam, budhism, secularism, feminism and every other ism you can think of. Yes much of the West has become drunk with its selfism created by secularism and feminism but the church (called out ones) is in a very strong position. Many many still have a strong faith in Christ. Nothing can or will snuff out His church. He has protected Israel through many genocide attempts, how much more His church.

Another essay which provides a unique critique of the delusions/illusions of the much hyped Christian mind, and the fakery of all of the big-time talkers of false religion (and all of the never-ending slaughters which their fakery inevitably causes)

http://www.beezone.com/AdiDa/jesusandme.html

The Minister of the 107 year old St Andrew's Uniting Church in Brisbane was showing me his church and described it as an oasis in the middle of the busy city. He was right and that is what a place of worship should be. Give me a beautiful old church with stained glass windows any day . You should experience something apart from the world around you when you enter a church.

Rhian,
I liked your post very much, more later when I am less drunk.

Thanks, David -- I have plans for a few more. What do you think of 'Backward, Christian Soldiers!' and 'A Mighty Vacuum Is Our God'? We'll get Peter's First Apophatic Church of Nothing in Particular off to a rousing start!

'What do you think of 'Backward, Christian Soldiers!' and 'A Mighty Vacuum Is Our God'? '

to late JonJ the athiest high priest already fit this description.

Jon J, it is really sad that humans still believe in gods and religion.

I mean, thousands of years ago when we humans didn't know much (we still don't), we harbored and embraced such fantasies as Adam and Eve, a Big Boppa God, burning forever in hell (which would defy physics), whales swallowing people, virgin births, burning bushes, turning water into wine, feeding thousands with two fish and a loaf of bread, you know what I mean, all the same old, same old. But this is 2013.

It is obvious to me that humans won't evolve any further. We have reached the endpoint. In fact it is likely we will regress, return to the trees (if there are any left).

But the clerics will there be among the branches, oh yes, spreading their lies, promising the faithful things they know to be untrue.

Last weekend, I was confronted by an Anglican Cleric at a wedding service. Fair dinkum, I thought it was the Pope! His finery was exquisite (just as well I was wearing sunglasses) and the cost of it would've kept a homeless person in luxury for six months.

The opiate of the asses? Never a truer word spoken!