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The Forum > Article Comments > 'We think it's time' - church gay marriage moves gather pace > Comments

'We think it's time' - church gay marriage moves gather pace : Comments

By Alan Austin, published 28/8/2012

For every Christian leader who opposes gay marriage there are many more who support it.

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Jimmy Jones wrote: "A better analogy would be if you had told that man that you were a member of a neo-Nazi political party. Would it not have been appropriate then for him to have assumed you support a neo-Nazi ideology?"

A person is not my enemy because of the ideology he supports.

Supporting an ideology is one thing. Being a decent human being is another. Oskar Schindler was a genuine Nazi. Before WW2 he served a term in a Czech prison for his Nazi activities. Yet, when it came to the Final Solution he saved many Jewish lives at the risk of his own.

Human beings are complex.

Hatred against Jews for centuries has been promoted by the charge of genocide. All Jews are assumed to be guilty for what some Jews have supposedly done. "Love thy neighbour as thy self" is found in both the Jewish and Catholic Bibles. There is nothing like it in the Nazi or neo-Nazi ideology.
Posted by david f, Friday, 31 August 2012 8:33:16 AM
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@david f

>> "A person is not my enemy because of the ideology he supports."

Hmm. So hypothetically, you would not consider your "enemy" a person whose goals, ideas and actions necessitate grievous harm to people named "David" and your families, even indirectly? Is that right?

That's an interesting notion, and one that I'm having trouble either understanding or believing.

>> "Hatred against Jews for centuries has been promoted by the charge of genocide. All Jews are assumed to be guilty for what some Jews have supposedly done. "Love thy neighbour as thy self" is found in both the Jewish and Catholic Bibles. There is nothing like it in the Nazi or neo-Nazi ideology."

I don't quite understand your point. I hope you don't think I was likening Catholics to Nazis!! Isn't there a law about doing that or something?

My rebuttal to your flawed analogy (imo) was _only_ constructed to demonstrate that deliberately choosing to identify with an ideological group (Nazis, Catholics, whatever) provides rather more of a hint about your ideology than does what country you live in.

But thanks anyway for taking pains to explain the difference between Catholics and Nazis for me!
Posted by Jimmy Jones, Friday, 31 August 2012 10:41:52 PM
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@Alan Austin

>> "What if someone was a member of the Catholic Church and had identified certain aspects of the theology and praxis which warranted reform - or abandonment - and were working internally towards that?

Would you still regard them as enemies, Jimmy?"

Got me there, I suppose. But ...

@Tony Lavis
>> "I think you'd pleasantly surprised to hear what some of the priests I've met think about Pell and his ultra-conservative crap."

Well if I'd be "surprised to hear" it, then it's hardly my fault for misjudging them is it? Where are these people? Why are they still writing "Catholic" on the census and supporting the status quo?

And,

>> "These are people not sheep"

Maybe not as you suggest in thinking their boss is full of "crap", but anyone who swallows this popular fiction called Catholicism to fulfill whatever need they have is really just following blindly.
Posted by Jimmy Jones, Friday, 31 August 2012 11:14:12 PM
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Dear Jimmy Jones,

You wrote: ">> "A person is not my enemy because of the ideology he supports."

Hmm. So hypothetically, you would not consider your "enemy" a person whose goals, ideas and actions necessitate grievous harm to people named "David" and your families, even indirectly? Is that right?"

I believe I made the point that supporting an ideology does not mean one's actions are necessarily determined by the ideology. I gave the example of Schindler who was a Nazi ideologue but when it came to the actual working out of the Final Solution opposed it. He had an ideology, but his humanity overrode the ideology.

After World War 2 there were trials of the Nazis at Nuremberg. Being a Nazi and supporting the ideology was not enough to convict a person of anything. They actually had to commit a crime.

I explained the difference between Catholicism and Nazism to you because you made an analogy between them so you apparently needed to have the difference pointed out. You justified your condemnation of Catholics as a group by making an analogy to condemning neo-Nazis as a group. Glad you appreciated my explanation.

Being a Catholic does not mean willingness to participate in an Inquisition or endorse all actions of the church. I am a dual citizen of the US and Australia. I was born in the US, but I voluntarily became an Australian citizen. I disapprove of many of the actions of both countries, but I do not plan to give up either citizenship. I think many Catholics are in exactly the same position.
Posted by david f, Friday, 31 August 2012 11:24:30 PM
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>>Well if I'd be "surprised to hear" it, then it's hardly my fault for misjudging them is it?<<

I'm glad to see that you acknowledge that you are misjudging people.

>>Where are these people?<<

I dunno - but I can tell you exactly what their momentum is.

>>Why are they still writing "Catholic" on the census and supporting the status quo?<<

Because they identify as Catholics. As for your second question: who knows? I never much liked Status Quo and ever since they did this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdV4pr4frd4

I have wanted to bludgeon them to death with a brick.

>>anyone who swallows this popular fiction called Catholicism to fulfill whatever need they have is really just following blindly.<<

Yes: but they're not alone. People believe all sorts of crap for reasons that have nothing to do with reason. I'd have to rate most Catholics a good deal saner than people who use homeopathic 'medicine' for example.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 1 September 2012 6:03:29 PM
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Curse you, Tony Lavis, for posting that Status Quo link ..!

Will I ever get it out of my head now?

Oh well, at least it puts into perspective the evils of the Catholics and the Nazis ...
Posted by Alan Austin, Saturday, 1 September 2012 11:28:35 PM
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