"Under Christianity a scientific culture could and did arise."

Yeah, Steven....but it sort of makes you wonder....

http://atomicarchive.com/Photos/Hiroshima/image1.shtml

Poirot,

Doesn't make me wonder, science is neutral, how humans use science is a different matter entirely.

There is far too much egregious, dare I say, strange historial revisionism going on here. The dark ages may well hide some technological advances, some learning and even some literature but a substantive comparision of Western Europe from the period 600BC to 400AD and 400AD-1400AD must leave us with lowered heads and shame.

In the 4th Century AD, The Goths running from the Huns are permitted into Roman territory and not dispersed across the empire as was the normal practice for a millenia, but instead allowed to remain a single entity within Roman territory. Within the next few decades several other barbarian tribes, The Vandals in particular, would likewise establish themselves within Roman territory with their own leadership.

This would inevitably cause the end of the western empire as it descended into smaller and smaller barbarian tribes. For a long time, it may have still been known as an Empire but it had become a facade and little else.

This of course does not tell us what caused the empire to become so weak that it allowed, welcomed and negotiated its own demise: plagues, famines, and economics played their part. There is some suggestion that the large landowners were a major contributor; They got so powerful, dispossed the small land farmer and took the very best young men for farm labouring, forcing the empire to turn to foreign mercenaries and inevatibly barbarian tribes.

The Elephant in the room is of course Chrisitianity. The irony is that arguably it is having a significant part to play in the decline of the USA today as well. But as for Rome, Christianity without question destroyed the culture of rome. The pagan beliefs, the roman and greek gods, greek and roman philosophers, aristotle, pythagoras, plays and tragedies, logic and oratory, family and honour everything was either destroyed, erased or quelled under the yoke of the new christian sect.

This is of course an unpopular, and uncomfortable conclusion. It is seen as overtly simplistic. But for all that it is also undeniable.

Perhaps to destroy an empire or a civilization what you need to do is first destroy its art, its philosophy, beliefs and culture; the rest will inevitably follow.

In recent times, the USA has shown signs of abandoning its own enlightenment culture. Its own pricinples and beliefs which protected the individual against unlawful actions, torture, indefinite detention. In recent times, it has become impossible to believe that our media, press is free. Rather it has become the tool of its owners and or our government. Wars no longer need to be just. Mass crimes may be committed without accountability. The public right and good is sublimated to secret proceedings by government agents and corporate patrons. Banks lie, fail and are saved by the public purse only to again lie and fail. The barbarian tribes are in the empire operating with impunity. The culture is still holding onto a facade.

Decline is now inevitable. Only its timing remains uncertain. Like Rome once the decline commences the war becomes internal; no cohesion is possible. Whilst, ostensibly the US fights for enemies in remote caves its true enemies are in their own midst: rogue agents, rogue military, rogue companies, rogue senators, congressman, media and cross purposes. The distinction between perception and reality becomes impossibly blurred.

The entire show has already descended into farce. From 9/11 to Iraq, Afghanistan, wars on terror, GFC, Euro Crisis, Abi Graih, Guantanamo, detention centres, and torture, Wiki leaks, Manning and Assange. What all these events have in common is how little the public knows, how much incompetance, illegality, and accountability. All we know is that these now re little more than slogans marking mass failure.

Life will go on, the US will survive only not as we know it. Welcome to the age of idiocracy.

YEBIGA,

Thank you for your enlightened posts....I'll be interested to read Steven's response.

Steven and mac,

Here's an excellent commentary on the state on the U.S.'s social machinations and their descent into "cultural ignorance". I hope you can find time to read it.

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2010/12/america-y-ur-peeps-b-so-dum.html